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They are, and it's true, even TODAY, and I'm going to repeat it every chance I get, because I've learnt that it takes repetition to correct misunderstanding and

by oxplot 5y ago

They are, and it's true, even TODAY, and I'm going to repeat it every chance I get, because I've learnt that it takes repetition to correct misunderstanding and ignorance! Just go on youtube and search for FSD Beta 10. Yes, it makes mistakes, and yes it has a long way before you can sleep at the wheel but it's doing door to door driving today across the entire US, like no other car even comes close to doing.

ra7 5y ago
FSD is level 2 self driving by Tesla’s own admission to CA DMV. So no, they are not even close to being “full self driving” capable.
- oxplot 5y ago
  The only difference between level 2 and up is whether the system needs attention should it make a mistake, and ATM Tesla must have a fully attentive driver at all times. The problem with the SAE levels is that level 2 covers such a broad category of autonomous capabilities that it’s kind of meaningless calling a car level 2. There are cars at level two manufactured a decade ago and Tesla FSD is also level 2 and the latter may as well be a spaceship in comparison. Knowing there are 5 levels and Tesla is at level 2 does not in any way give one a notion of how autonomous the car is, only that it may make mistakes x% of the time. An analogy with a SaaS is having a full featured service that’s available 99% of time and dismissing it as every other toy service out there, only because it’s not available 99.99% of the time. That’s the situation with Tesla more or less. Granted the march towards more 9s is going to take some time. EDIT: I looked up the "Tesla admitting level 2" and it's in regards to their *current* Autopilot software that's been around for years, not FSD Beta which is currently only rolled out to a few thousand people in US. So seems like you're not understanding the difference between Autopilot and FSD Beta. I recommend again that you watch "FSD Beta 10" videos on Youtube since you evidently have not. EDIT: removed hostile comment
  - ra7 5y ago
    > Knowing there are 5 levels and Tesla is at level 2 does not in any way give one a notion of how autonomous the car is It literally does. SAE levels [1] are very clear in terms of who is in control, human supervision/take over expectations and Operational Design Domain. It’s not at all about mistake percentage, so the SaaS analogy is irrelevant. At the end of the day, if you’re still in level 2, it means you’re not fully autonomous because you can’t take passengers from point A to point B and handle mistakes, including safely pulling over when necessary. Tesla is nowhere close to doing this. [1] https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update
    - oxplot 5y ago
      > It’s not at all about mistake percentage Yes it is and SaaS is very relevant. The very page you've linked lists all sorts of "features" up to level 2 but level 3 and up is all about whether the driver should take over if the car asks them to. In fact, re-reading the levels, FSD Beta is at level 3 because: - You are NOT driving when the features are active (the car accelerates, stops, turns, gives way, negotiates with traffic, waits for pedestrians, changes lanes, follows navigation, etc.). - When the feature requests, you must drive. Check. FSD Beta will prompt the user to take over at times when it can't figure out the way forward. - These features drive under limited condition and won't do so if conditions aren't met. Check too. FSD Beta will only become available when it has a good sense of the environment. Well, thanks for the refresher. So FSD Beta is clearly at level 3 now.
      - ra7 5y ago
        > The very page you've linked lists all sorts of "features" up to level 2 but level 3 and up is all about whether the driver should take over if the car asks them to. Thanks for making my point for me and conceding autonomy is, in fact, determined by who's responsible for safe operations and not just mistake percentage improvement. > In fact, re-reading the levels, FSD Beta is at level 3 because: > - You are NOT driving when the features are active (the car accelerates, stops, turns, gives way, negotiates with traffic, waits for pedestrians, changes lanes, follows navigation, etc.). Clearly, you either didn't read the chart fully or didn't comprehend it well because you are going against Tesla's own claim that FSD is level 2. You also spectacularly missed the biggest condition why it's still level 2. SAE level 2 in the chart says says: > You are driving whenever these driver support features are engaged — even if your feet are off the pedals and you are not steering > You must constantly supervise these support features; you must steer, brake or accelerate as needed to maintain safety. Last I checked, FSD requires constant driver supervision and hands on the wheel. Tesla is very clear about this. So it is, in fact, level 2 by definition. The key difference with level 3 is it doesn't require constant supervision — meaning a driver can read a book or watch a movie — and the system will alert in advance within a reasonable amount of time for a driver take over. Of course, nobody can really determine what "reasonable amount of time" is for a safety alert, which is why level 3 remains the most ambiguous of all the SAE levels. You should really try to inform yourself of SAE level basics before spreading misinformation about a safety critical system.
clouddrover 5y ago
> They are, and it's true, even TODAY Tesla claimed it was 5 years ago: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... But it wasn't. And it still isn't.
rvz 5y ago
> They are, and it's true, even TODAY That’s a very strong claim that needs to be substantiated with evidence. Do you have evidence of a ‘Full Self Driving’ Level 5, Robotaxi without a steering wheel made by Tesla Inc. existing on the roads today?
- oxplot 5y ago
  FSD Beta (not Tesla Autopilot) drives door to door right now. Go on youtube and search for "FSD Beta 10" to get a feel of it. It makes mistakes enough that you need an attentive driver who can take over, so you still need a steering wheel. Level 3-5 is all about ever less driver intervention but as far as functionality goes, Teslas can drive autonomously on highways and urban settings across the entire US.
  - rvz 5y ago
    'Go on youtube and search' is not evidence. I was under the assumption that 'Level 5' robo-taxis were coming in 2020 but it seems that we got something else called 'FSD' that still requires driver intervention and is admittedly 'Level 2' by Tesla Inc. So where are the Level 5 approved Tesla robo-taxis?
    - oxplot 5y ago
      > 'Go on youtube and search' is not evidence. Yes it is. I even told you what to search for exactly and I've already pasted direct links to some of them in a sibling post. > I was under the assumption that 'Level 5' robo-taxis were coming in 2020 Be prepared to be disappointed again and again when it comes to cutting edge of tech. You're not waiting for the next Xbox.
      - rvz 5y ago
        > Yes it is. I even told you what to search for exactly and I've already pasted direct links to some of them in a sibling post. No it is not. Even if one did search, there is not one video that describes what Tesla Inc. promised or predicted in 2020 which was a Level 5 approved Tesla Robotaxi. > Be prepared to be disappointed again and again when it comes to cutting edge of tech. You're not waiting for the next Xbox. Did you not realise that you just admitted that you don't know where the Level 5 approved Tesla Robotaxis that was supposed to be due for 2020 were?

by oxplot 5y ago

ra7 5y ago

FSD is level 2 self driving by Tesla’s own admission to CA DMV. So no, they are not even close to being “full self driving” capable.

oxplot 5y ago
The only difference between level 2 and up is whether the system needs attention should it make a mistake, and ATM Tesla must have a fully attentive driver at all times. The problem with the SAE levels is that level 2 covers such a broad category of autonomous capabilities that it’s kind of meaningless calling a car level 2. There are cars at level two manufactured a decade ago and Tesla FSD is also level 2 and the latter may as well be a spaceship in comparison. Knowing there are 5 levels and Tesla is at level 2 does not in any way give one a notion of how autonomous the car is, only that it may make mistakes x% of the time. An analogy with a SaaS is having a full featured service that’s available 99% of time and dismissing it as every other toy service out there, only because it’s not available 99.99% of the time. That’s the situation with Tesla more or less. Granted the march towards more 9s is going to take some time. EDIT: I looked up the "Tesla admitting level 2" and it's in regards to their *current* Autopilot software that's been around for years, not FSD Beta which is currently only rolled out to a few thousand people in US. So seems like you're not understanding the difference between Autopilot and FSD Beta. I recommend again that you watch "FSD Beta 10" videos on Youtube since you evidently have not. EDIT: removed hostile comment
- ra7 5y ago
  > Knowing there are 5 levels and Tesla is at level 2 does not in any way give one a notion of how autonomous the car is It literally does. SAE levels [1] are very clear in terms of who is in control, human supervision/take over expectations and Operational Design Domain. It’s not at all about mistake percentage, so the SaaS analogy is irrelevant. At the end of the day, if you’re still in level 2, it means you’re not fully autonomous because you can’t take passengers from point A to point B and handle mistakes, including safely pulling over when necessary. Tesla is nowhere close to doing this. [1] https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update
  - oxplot 5y ago
    > It’s not at all about mistake percentage Yes it is and SaaS is very relevant. The very page you've linked lists all sorts of "features" up to level 2 but level 3 and up is all about whether the driver should take over if the car asks them to. In fact, re-reading the levels, FSD Beta is at level 3 because: - You are NOT driving when the features are active (the car accelerates, stops, turns, gives way, negotiates with traffic, waits for pedestrians, changes lanes, follows navigation, etc.). - When the feature requests, you must drive. Check. FSD Beta will prompt the user to take over at times when it can't figure out the way forward. - These features drive under limited condition and won't do so if conditions aren't met. Check too. FSD Beta will only become available when it has a good sense of the environment. Well, thanks for the refresher. So FSD Beta is clearly at level 3 now.
    - ra7 5y ago
      > The very page you've linked lists all sorts of "features" up to level 2 but level 3 and up is all about whether the driver should take over if the car asks them to. Thanks for making my point for me and conceding autonomy is, in fact, determined by who's responsible for safe operations and not just mistake percentage improvement. > In fact, re-reading the levels, FSD Beta is at level 3 because: > - You are NOT driving when the features are active (the car accelerates, stops, turns, gives way, negotiates with traffic, waits for pedestrians, changes lanes, follows navigation, etc.). Clearly, you either didn't read the chart fully or didn't comprehend it well because you are going against Tesla's own claim that FSD is level 2. You also spectacularly missed the biggest condition why it's still level 2. SAE level 2 in the chart says says: > You are driving whenever these driver support features are engaged — even if your feet are off the pedals and you are not steering > You must constantly supervise these support features; you must steer, brake or accelerate as needed to maintain safety. Last I checked, FSD requires constant driver supervision and hands on the wheel. Tesla is very clear about this. So it is, in fact, level 2 by definition. The key difference with level 3 is it doesn't require constant supervision — meaning a driver can read a book or watch a movie — and the system will alert in advance within a reasonable amount of time for a driver take over. Of course, nobody can really determine what "reasonable amount of time" is for a safety alert, which is why level 3 remains the most ambiguous of all the SAE levels. You should really try to inform yourself of SAE level basics before spreading misinformation about a safety critical system.

clouddrover 5y ago

> They are, and it's true, even TODAY Tesla claimed it was 5 years ago: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... But it wasn't. And it still isn't.

rvz 5y ago

> They are, and it's true, even TODAY That’s a very strong claim that needs to be substantiated with evidence. Do you have evidence of a ‘Full Self Driving’ Level 5, Robotaxi without a steering wheel made by Tesla Inc. existing on the roads today?

oxplot 5y ago
FSD Beta (not Tesla Autopilot) drives door to door right now. Go on youtube and search for "FSD Beta 10" to get a feel of it. It makes mistakes enough that you need an attentive driver who can take over, so you still need a steering wheel. Level 3-5 is all about ever less driver intervention but as far as functionality goes, Teslas can drive autonomously on highways and urban settings across the entire US.
- rvz 5y ago
  'Go on youtube and search' is not evidence. I was under the assumption that 'Level 5' robo-taxis were coming in 2020 but it seems that we got something else called 'FSD' that still requires driver intervention and is admittedly 'Level 2' by Tesla Inc. So where are the Level 5 approved Tesla robo-taxis?
  - oxplot 5y ago
    > 'Go on youtube and search' is not evidence. Yes it is. I even told you what to search for exactly and I've already pasted direct links to some of them in a sibling post. > I was under the assumption that 'Level 5' robo-taxis were coming in 2020 Be prepared to be disappointed again and again when it comes to cutting edge of tech. You're not waiting for the next Xbox.
    - rvz 5y ago
      > Yes it is. I even told you what to search for exactly and I've already pasted direct links to some of them in a sibling post. No it is not. Even if one did search, there is not one video that describes what Tesla Inc. promised or predicted in 2020 which was a Level 5 approved Tesla Robotaxi. > Be prepared to be disappointed again and again when it comes to cutting edge of tech. You're not waiting for the next Xbox. Did you not realise that you just admitted that you don't know where the Level 5 approved Tesla Robotaxis that was supposed to be due for 2020 were?