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I largely agree with this. A constrained markup format I look to for inspiration is EPUB [1], which uses XHTML and a constrained directory layout, but recent ve

I largely agree with this. A constrained markup format I look to for inspiration is EPUB [1], which uses XHTML and a constrained directory layout, but recent versions have fallen in thrall of HTML5 and has the potential for its attendant complexity. I think a scoped version of EPUB has a lot of promise and is readily supported on many, many devices. Another format inspired similarly is the now-defunc WML [2], which uses an even more constrained XML document to describe layout specifically for constrained devices. Regardless, I largely feel that constrained markup formats are where the effort to make the web both user and developer friendly again should lie. There is also another defunct format, the AMB [3] which is a very different approach, but its goals and assumptions are a little too far out from the expectations of modern users IMO. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPUB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPUB [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Markup_Language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Markup_Language [3]: http://amb.osdn.io/ http://amb.osdn.io/

dredmorbius 5y ago
Epub ... is close, though it still hits a few failure points. On physically-constrained devices (e.g., phones < 6" diagonal), it's about the only reader format that works at all. For larger devices, I strongly prefer a fixed-layout format such as PDF or DJVU. Designers still foul up ePub far too often. The evolved typography of print took about 500 years to reach present development (though most of the modern elements were in place by the early 19th century). After a long enough period of getting things right, any change is most likely to be in the direction of Schlimbesserung: making things worse whilst attempting to improve them. This includes various font, point, and other stylistic choices. ePub affords too much freedom and authority to designers and not enough to readers. On desktop platforms, there are few good ePub readers. fbreader on Linux is especially unpardonably poor. (I think Zathura may improve on this, if it does support ePub.) And I think ePub still doesn't support formulae properly. Thaks for the AMB and WML references, I'd not seen those yet. Oh ... WML -> WAP, right. I still think that the Web needs to be split up, probably along the lines I suggested some years ago: - Documents - Applications / Games - Commerce / Finance - Multimedia https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/256lxu/tabbed_browsing_a_lousy_bandaid_over_poor_browser/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/256lxu/tabbed_... These are ultimately different domains with different needs and uses. There's some call for complex and mixed formats .... but far less han their promotors would like us to believe. Advertising must die or be killed.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  > On physically-constrained devices (e.g., phones < 6" diagonal), it's about the only reader format that works at all. For larger devices, I strongly prefer a fixed-layout format such as PDF or DJVU. Interesting, I don't think I have a strong preference here. For textbooks I tend to prefer DJVU simply because of filesize, though DJVU readers aren't quite up to snuff in comparison to, say, evince (at least on nix, I'm not sure the state on non-nix). > And I think ePub still doesn't support formulae properly. Well, in theory, the latest versions of ePub have support for MathML. In practice... I don't know. I've tried to consume books with formulae on ePub and it's been a little nightmare. > These are ultimately different domains with different needs and uses. There's some call for complex and mixed formats .... but far less han their promotors would like us to believe. Advertising must die or be killed. There are promoters still? I would have been more sympathetic for mixed formats and flows when the web was younger, but these days, it feels obvious to me at least that the cases do have very different needs. Hell, every time I have to deal with a shadow DOM (which I don't have to do often, luckily) I regret the choices that ended up creating the concept of a shadow DOM in the first place. Is your sub a place to discuss issues like this? I'd love to think/discuss these sorts of things in a thoughtful environment, and thanks for your exchange.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    DJVU and PDF are largely equivalent in that both result in fixed-layout documents, which is what I'm distinguishing here. Both HTML and ePub are liquid and reflow. That's most useful when your display is poorly suited to reading textual documents. Thanks for the MathML reference. The subreddit is effectively dead. Reddit is a hostile entity.

dredmorbius 5y ago

Epub ... is close, though it still hits a few failure points. On physically-constrained devices (e.g., phones < 6" diagonal), it's about the only reader format that works at all. For larger devices, I strongly prefer a fixed-layout format such as PDF or DJVU. Designers still foul up ePub far too often. The evolved typography of print took about 500 years to reach present development (though most of the modern elements were in place by the early 19th century). After a long enough period of getting things right, any change is most likely to be in the direction of Schlimbesserung: making things worse whilst attempting to improve them. This includes various font, point, and other stylistic choices. ePub affords too much freedom and authority to designers and not enough to readers. On desktop platforms, there are few good ePub readers. fbreader on Linux is especially unpardonably poor. (I think Zathura may improve on this, if it does support ePub.) And I think ePub still doesn't support formulae properly. Thaks for the AMB and WML references, I'd not seen those yet. Oh ... WML -> WAP, right. I still think that the Web needs to be split up, probably along the lines I suggested some years ago: - Documents - Applications / Games - Commerce / Finance - Multimedia https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/256lxu/tabbed_browsing_a_lousy_bandaid_over_poor_browser/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/256lxu/tabbed_... These are ultimately different domains with different needs and uses. There's some call for complex and mixed formats .... but far less han their promotors would like us to believe. Advertising must die or be killed.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
> On physically-constrained devices (e.g., phones < 6" diagonal), it's about the only reader format that works at all. For larger devices, I strongly prefer a fixed-layout format such as PDF or DJVU. Interesting, I don't think I have a strong preference here. For textbooks I tend to prefer DJVU simply because of filesize, though DJVU readers aren't quite up to snuff in comparison to, say, evince (at least on nix, I'm not sure the state on non-nix). > And I think ePub still doesn't support formulae properly. Well, in theory, the latest versions of ePub have support for MathML. In practice... I don't know. I've tried to consume books with formulae on ePub and it's been a little nightmare. > These are ultimately different domains with different needs and uses. There's some call for complex and mixed formats .... but far less han their promotors would like us to believe. Advertising must die or be killed. There are promoters still? I would have been more sympathetic for mixed formats and flows when the web was younger, but these days, it feels obvious to me at least that the cases do have very different needs. Hell, every time I have to deal with a shadow DOM (which I don't have to do often, luckily) I regret the choices that ended up creating the concept of a shadow DOM in the first place. Is your sub a place to discuss issues like this? I'd love to think/discuss these sorts of things in a thoughtful environment, and thanks for your exchange.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  DJVU and PDF are largely equivalent in that both result in fixed-layout documents, which is what I'm distinguishing here. Both HTML and ePub are liquid and reflow. That's most useful when your display is poorly suited to reading textual documents. Thanks for the MathML reference. The subreddit is effectively dead. Reddit is a hostile entity.