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> Thank you, Elon - you saved a lot of money and ruin decades of car UX The motivation behind a single touchscreen (from the horse’s mouth) is the gradual move

by oxplot 5y ago

> Thank you, Elon - you saved a lot of money and ruin decades of car UX The motivation behind a single touchscreen (from the horse’s mouth) is the gradual move to full self driving. Given that all Teslas are capable of fully autonomous driving, pending software, it doesn’t make sense to pollute the car interior with controls that will become obsolete during the lifetime of the car, not even accounting for extra cost associated with manufacturing dozens/hundreds of extra parts. Now if others are copying it without understanding why it’s done that way, it’s on them.

mdorazio 5y ago
> Given that all Teslas are capable of fully autonomous driving, pending software They are not. Please stop propagating this falsehood.
- oxplot 5y ago
  They are, and it's true, even TODAY, and I'm going to repeat it every chance I get, because I've learnt that it takes repetition to correct misunderstanding and ignorance! Just go on youtube and search for FSD Beta 10. Yes, it makes mistakes, and yes it has a long way before you can sleep at the wheel but it's doing door to door driving today across the entire US, like no other car even comes close to doing.
  - ra7 5y ago
    FSD is level 2 self driving by Tesla’s own admission to CA DMV. So no, they are not even close to being “full self driving” capable.
    - oxplot 5y ago
      The only difference between level 2 and up is whether the system needs attention should it make a mistake, and ATM Tesla must have a fully attentive driver at all times. The problem with the SAE levels is that level 2 covers such a broad category of autonomous capabilities that it’s kind of meaningless calling a car level 2. There are cars at level two manufactured a decade ago and Tesla FSD is also level 2 and the latter may as well be a spaceship in comparison. Knowing there are 5 levels and Tesla is at level 2 does not in any way give one a notion of how autonomous the car is, only that it may make mistakes x% of the time. An analogy with a SaaS is having a full featured service that’s available 99% of time and dismissing it as every other toy service out there, only because it’s not available 99.99% of the time. That’s the situation with Tesla more or less. Granted the march towards more 9s is going to take some time. EDIT: I looked up the "Tesla admitting level 2" and it's in regards to their *current* Autopilot software that's been around for years, not FSD Beta which is currently only rolled out to a few thousand people in US. So seems like you're not understanding the difference between Autopilot and FSD Beta. I recommend again that you watch "FSD Beta 10" videos on Youtube since you evidently have not. EDIT: removed hostile comment
      - ra7 5y ago
        > Knowing there are 5 levels and Tesla is at level 2 does not in any way give one a notion of how autonomous the car is It literally does. SAE levels [1] are very clear in terms of who is in control, human supervision/take over expectations and Operational Design Domain. It’s not at all about mistake percentage, so the SaaS analogy is irrelevant. At the end of the day, if you’re still in level 2, it means you’re not fully autonomous because you can’t take passengers from point A to point B and handle mistakes, including safely pulling over when necessary. Tesla is nowhere close to doing this. [1] https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update
        oxplot 5y ago
        > It’s not at all about mistake percentage Yes it is and SaaS is very relevant. The very page you've linked lists all sorts of "features" up to level 2 but level 3 and up is all about whether the driver should take over if the car asks them to. In fact, re-reading the levels, FSD Beta is at level 3 because: - You are NOT driving when the features are active (the car accelerates, stops, turns, gives way, negotiates with traffic, waits for pedestrians, changes lanes, follows navigation, etc.). - When the feature requests, you must drive. Check. FSD Beta will prompt the user to take over at times when it can't figure out the way forward. - These features drive under limited condition and won't do so if conditions aren't met. Check too. FSD Beta will only become available when it has a good sense of the environment. Well, thanks for the refresher. So FSD Beta is clearly at level 3 now.
        ra7 5y ago
        > The very page you've linked lists all sorts of "features" up to level 2 but level 3 and up is all about whether the driver should take over if the car asks them to. Thanks for making my point for me and conceding autonomy is, in fact, determined by who's responsible for safe operations and not just mistake percentage improvement. > In fact, re-reading the levels, FSD Beta is at level 3 because: > - You are NOT driving when the features are active (the car accelerates, stops, turns, gives way, negotiates with traffic, waits for pedestrians, changes lanes, follows navigation, etc.). Clearly, you either didn't read the chart fully or didn't comprehend it well because you are going against Tesla's own claim that FSD is level 2. You also spectacularly missed the biggest condition why it's still level 2. SAE level 2 in the chart says says: > You are driving whenever these driver support features are engaged — even if your feet are off the pedals and you are not steering > You must constantly supervise these support features; you must steer, brake or accelerate as needed to maintain safety. Last I checked, FSD requires constant driver supervision and hands on the wheel. Tesla is very clear about this. So it is, in fact, level 2 by definition. The key difference with level 3 is it doesn't require constant supervision — meaning a driver can read a book or watch a movie — and the system will alert in advance within a reasonable amount of time for a driver take over. Of course, nobody can really determine what "reasonable amount of time" is for a safety alert, which is why level 3 remains the most ambiguous of all the SAE levels. You should really try to inform yourself of SAE level basics before spreading misinformation about a safety critical system.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    > They are, and it's true, even TODAY Tesla claimed it was 5 years ago: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... But it wasn't. And it still isn't.
  - rvz 5y ago
    > They are, and it's true, even TODAY That’s a very strong claim that needs to be substantiated with evidence. Do you have evidence of a ‘Full Self Driving’ Level 5, Robotaxi without a steering wheel made by Tesla Inc. existing on the roads today?
    - oxplot 5y ago
      FSD Beta (not Tesla Autopilot) drives door to door right now. Go on youtube and search for "FSD Beta 10" to get a feel of it. It makes mistakes enough that you need an attentive driver who can take over, so you still need a steering wheel. Level 3-5 is all about ever less driver intervention but as far as functionality goes, Teslas can drive autonomously on highways and urban settings across the entire US.
      - rvz 5y ago
        'Go on youtube and search' is not evidence. I was under the assumption that 'Level 5' robo-taxis were coming in 2020 but it seems that we got something else called 'FSD' that still requires driver intervention and is admittedly 'Level 2' by Tesla Inc. So where are the Level 5 approved Tesla robo-taxis?
        oxplot 5y ago
        > 'Go on youtube and search' is not evidence. Yes it is. I even told you what to search for exactly and I've already pasted direct links to some of them in a sibling post. > I was under the assumption that 'Level 5' robo-taxis were coming in 2020 Be prepared to be disappointed again and again when it comes to cutting edge of tech. You're not waiting for the next Xbox.
        rvz 5y ago
        > Yes it is. I even told you what to search for exactly and I've already pasted direct links to some of them in a sibling post. No it is not. Even if one did search, there is not one video that describes what Tesla Inc. promised or predicted in 2020 which was a Level 5 approved Tesla Robotaxi. > Be prepared to be disappointed again and again when it comes to cutting edge of tech. You're not waiting for the next Xbox. Did you not realise that you just admitted that you don't know where the Level 5 approved Tesla Robotaxis that was supposed to be due for 2020 were?
josephcsible 5y ago
> Given that all Teslas are capable of fully autonomous driving, pending software All new ones are. There's still old ones out there that didn't ship with the HW3 computer and haven't yet had it retrofitted.
null_shift 5y ago
i’m sure that’s their cover story. but in reality they aren’t anywhere close to the level of self driving needed where you could give your full attention to the touch screen.
- oxplot 5y ago
  Sure, hence "pending software". And if you happen to follow their progress on youtube (just search FSD Beta 10), you'll see just how advanced it already is. And it's getting better at an exponential rate.
rasz 5y ago
> Given that all Teslas are capable of fully autonomous driving accidents. All Teslas are capable of fully autonomous accidents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWH_0YA5XM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWH_0YA5XM 'Tesla Autopilot Hits a Deer (and I think it will happen again.)'
- oxplot 5y ago
  You will never hear about all the times it's saved people's lives and avoided accidents, so until you show me that it has in fact increased accident rates, a link to a video means nothing, unless you are a journalist and your newspaper is on the verge of going under, in which case you need some juicy drama to sell ads.
  - Marciplan 5y ago
    You drank quite a lot of that kool-aid, huh
    - oxplot 5y ago
      That's what well informed looks like from the outside!
  - rasz 5y ago
    Video of Tesla emergency braking or avoiding hitting a pedestrian that ran in front of it would go viral instantly. Can you show me a few? maybe one?
    - oxplot 5y ago
      Sure thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VttbZAr1TBc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VttbZAr1TBc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7otagz2NS0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7otagz2NS0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC1PoqyZc_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC1PoqyZc_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbw2ZB0Lbk8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbw2ZB0Lbk8
nbzso 5y ago
The way I see autonomous driving is trough reality, not trough fanboism or 'tech fetishism'. The current stable driving assistant systems must be secondary to real driving. They are capable of critical prevention and effective safe-nets and when done properly they reduce risk tenfold. Idea of beta-testing on the public roads by creating consumer disinformation is outrageous and must be stopped. It is beyond believe, how regulations are soft towards applications of technologies with direct effect on human lives. My area of expertise is in UI/UX and the simplest logic possible is called ergonomic prerequisite. Every system must exist as a 100% functionality before some form of control surface is introduced. Every control surface must be human oriented. In car UX, the main function is driving and everything that reduces risk of removing focus from the road is good UX, everything that creates distraction and complication is not only bad UX - it is dangerous. In car touch interfaces are exciting for people who hate driving and love their phones. This is the main selling point. It is the result of marketing driven design and enormous amount of production savings (when removing physical controls for dedicated functions) as a business motivational vector. This will not work long-term. The Idea of vehicles as a SaaS platform also will not work. This will be CX hell and people will reject it.
- oxplot 5y ago
  > Idea of beta-testing on the public roads by creating consumer disinformation is outrageous and must be stopped. Everyone driving the FSD Beta knows pretty well what they're doing and what the whole thing means, hence the very strict criteria the drivers must meet to have that feature enabled, so I don't know what disinformation you're talking about. Calling it outrageous, dangerous, etc doesn't make it so, and evidently, after many month of FSD Beta, there is yet an accident to be reported resulting from use of it, in a world where every Tesla accident makes it to front page of the news. Is it an accident waiting to happen? Well, every time you get into your car, you're entering the accident lottery. It's all about the likelihood of getting into an accident and so far numbers are in Tesla's favor. And how do you imagine a system whose improvements relies heavily on real world data is meant to obtain it without large scale participation? Have a hundred employees doing rounds in a test track? The way I see autonomous driving through being well informed, and not speaking based on outdated intuitions, Tesla's pushing the envelope just enough to make meaningful progress toward full self-driving while not overly putting people at risk. > It is beyond believe, how regulations are soft towards applications of technologies with direct effect on human lives. Heavily regulating something that's in its infancy is the surest way to kill it. Those people who are constantly bitching about why robo-taxis aren't here yet even with lax regulations, can be certain to dream of it for the rest of their lives should walls be put up too early. > In car touch interfaces are exciting for people who hate driving and love their phones. Not only. I drive a M3 and I love driving it. I don't use my phone and nor find the urge to. I enjoy the lack of clutter, and the beautiful large screen when I need to use it. Every other car I sit in, feels like a 60s Russian rocket and stresses me out. Even Tesla's own Model S and Model X feels too cluttered now with the extra driver's dash screen. > This will not work long-term. The Idea of vehicles as a SaaS platform also will not work. This will be CX hell and people will reject it. Ye, that's what they said about SaaS on the Internet. Who would, in their right minds, give up control of their service and store their data and code at the mercy of a third party. Saw how that turned out.

by oxplot 5y ago

mdorazio 5y ago

> Given that all Teslas are capable of fully autonomous driving, pending software They are not. Please stop propagating this falsehood.

oxplot 5y ago
They are, and it's true, even TODAY, and I'm going to repeat it every chance I get, because I've learnt that it takes repetition to correct misunderstanding and ignorance! Just go on youtube and search for FSD Beta 10. Yes, it makes mistakes, and yes it has a long way before you can sleep at the wheel but it's doing door to door driving today across the entire US, like no other car even comes close to doing.
- ra7 5y ago
  FSD is level 2 self driving by Tesla’s own admission to CA DMV. So no, they are not even close to being “full self driving” capable.
  - oxplot 5y ago
    The only difference between level 2 and up is whether the system needs attention should it make a mistake, and ATM Tesla must have a fully attentive driver at all times. The problem with the SAE levels is that level 2 covers such a broad category of autonomous capabilities that it’s kind of meaningless calling a car level 2. There are cars at level two manufactured a decade ago and Tesla FSD is also level 2 and the latter may as well be a spaceship in comparison. Knowing there are 5 levels and Tesla is at level 2 does not in any way give one a notion of how autonomous the car is, only that it may make mistakes x% of the time. An analogy with a SaaS is having a full featured service that’s available 99% of time and dismissing it as every other toy service out there, only because it’s not available 99.99% of the time. That’s the situation with Tesla more or less. Granted the march towards more 9s is going to take some time. EDIT: I looked up the "Tesla admitting level 2" and it's in regards to their *current* Autopilot software that's been around for years, not FSD Beta which is currently only rolled out to a few thousand people in US. So seems like you're not understanding the difference between Autopilot and FSD Beta. I recommend again that you watch "FSD Beta 10" videos on Youtube since you evidently have not. EDIT: removed hostile comment
    - ra7 5y ago
      > Knowing there are 5 levels and Tesla is at level 2 does not in any way give one a notion of how autonomous the car is It literally does. SAE levels [1] are very clear in terms of who is in control, human supervision/take over expectations and Operational Design Domain. It’s not at all about mistake percentage, so the SaaS analogy is irrelevant. At the end of the day, if you’re still in level 2, it means you’re not fully autonomous because you can’t take passengers from point A to point B and handle mistakes, including safely pulling over when necessary. Tesla is nowhere close to doing this. [1] https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update
      - oxplot 5y ago
        > It’s not at all about mistake percentage Yes it is and SaaS is very relevant. The very page you've linked lists all sorts of "features" up to level 2 but level 3 and up is all about whether the driver should take over if the car asks them to. In fact, re-reading the levels, FSD Beta is at level 3 because: - You are NOT driving when the features are active (the car accelerates, stops, turns, gives way, negotiates with traffic, waits for pedestrians, changes lanes, follows navigation, etc.). - When the feature requests, you must drive. Check. FSD Beta will prompt the user to take over at times when it can't figure out the way forward. - These features drive under limited condition and won't do so if conditions aren't met. Check too. FSD Beta will only become available when it has a good sense of the environment. Well, thanks for the refresher. So FSD Beta is clearly at level 3 now.
        ra7 5y ago
        > The very page you've linked lists all sorts of "features" up to level 2 but level 3 and up is all about whether the driver should take over if the car asks them to. Thanks for making my point for me and conceding autonomy is, in fact, determined by who's responsible for safe operations and not just mistake percentage improvement. > In fact, re-reading the levels, FSD Beta is at level 3 because: > - You are NOT driving when the features are active (the car accelerates, stops, turns, gives way, negotiates with traffic, waits for pedestrians, changes lanes, follows navigation, etc.). Clearly, you either didn't read the chart fully or didn't comprehend it well because you are going against Tesla's own claim that FSD is level 2. You also spectacularly missed the biggest condition why it's still level 2. SAE level 2 in the chart says says: > You are driving whenever these driver support features are engaged — even if your feet are off the pedals and you are not steering > You must constantly supervise these support features; you must steer, brake or accelerate as needed to maintain safety. Last I checked, FSD requires constant driver supervision and hands on the wheel. Tesla is very clear about this. So it is, in fact, level 2 by definition. The key difference with level 3 is it doesn't require constant supervision — meaning a driver can read a book or watch a movie — and the system will alert in advance within a reasonable amount of time for a driver take over. Of course, nobody can really determine what "reasonable amount of time" is for a safety alert, which is why level 3 remains the most ambiguous of all the SAE levels. You should really try to inform yourself of SAE level basics before spreading misinformation about a safety critical system.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > They are, and it's true, even TODAY Tesla claimed it was 5 years ago: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... But it wasn't. And it still isn't.
- rvz 5y ago
  > They are, and it's true, even TODAY That’s a very strong claim that needs to be substantiated with evidence. Do you have evidence of a ‘Full Self Driving’ Level 5, Robotaxi without a steering wheel made by Tesla Inc. existing on the roads today?
  - oxplot 5y ago
    FSD Beta (not Tesla Autopilot) drives door to door right now. Go on youtube and search for "FSD Beta 10" to get a feel of it. It makes mistakes enough that you need an attentive driver who can take over, so you still need a steering wheel. Level 3-5 is all about ever less driver intervention but as far as functionality goes, Teslas can drive autonomously on highways and urban settings across the entire US.
    - rvz 5y ago
      'Go on youtube and search' is not evidence. I was under the assumption that 'Level 5' robo-taxis were coming in 2020 but it seems that we got something else called 'FSD' that still requires driver intervention and is admittedly 'Level 2' by Tesla Inc. So where are the Level 5 approved Tesla robo-taxis?
      - oxplot 5y ago
        > 'Go on youtube and search' is not evidence. Yes it is. I even told you what to search for exactly and I've already pasted direct links to some of them in a sibling post. > I was under the assumption that 'Level 5' robo-taxis were coming in 2020 Be prepared to be disappointed again and again when it comes to cutting edge of tech. You're not waiting for the next Xbox.
        rvz 5y ago
        > Yes it is. I even told you what to search for exactly and I've already pasted direct links to some of them in a sibling post. No it is not. Even if one did search, there is not one video that describes what Tesla Inc. promised or predicted in 2020 which was a Level 5 approved Tesla Robotaxi. > Be prepared to be disappointed again and again when it comes to cutting edge of tech. You're not waiting for the next Xbox. Did you not realise that you just admitted that you don't know where the Level 5 approved Tesla Robotaxis that was supposed to be due for 2020 were?

josephcsible 5y ago

> Given that all Teslas are capable of fully autonomous driving, pending software All new ones are. There's still old ones out there that didn't ship with the HW3 computer and haven't yet had it retrofitted.

null_shift 5y ago

i’m sure that’s their cover story. but in reality they aren’t anywhere close to the level of self driving needed where you could give your full attention to the touch screen.

oxplot 5y ago
Sure, hence "pending software". And if you happen to follow their progress on youtube (just search FSD Beta 10), you'll see just how advanced it already is. And it's getting better at an exponential rate.

rasz 5y ago

> Given that all Teslas are capable of fully autonomous driving accidents. All Teslas are capable of fully autonomous accidents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWH_0YA5XM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWH_0YA5XM 'Tesla Autopilot Hits a Deer (and I think it will happen again.)'

oxplot 5y ago
You will never hear about all the times it's saved people's lives and avoided accidents, so until you show me that it has in fact increased accident rates, a link to a video means nothing, unless you are a journalist and your newspaper is on the verge of going under, in which case you need some juicy drama to sell ads.
- Marciplan 5y ago
  You drank quite a lot of that kool-aid, huh
  - oxplot 5y ago
    That's what well informed looks like from the outside!
- rasz 5y ago
  Video of Tesla emergency braking or avoiding hitting a pedestrian that ran in front of it would go viral instantly. Can you show me a few? maybe one?
  - oxplot 5y ago
    Sure thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VttbZAr1TBc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VttbZAr1TBc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7otagz2NS0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7otagz2NS0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC1PoqyZc_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC1PoqyZc_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbw2ZB0Lbk8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbw2ZB0Lbk8

nbzso 5y ago

The way I see autonomous driving is trough reality, not trough fanboism or 'tech fetishism'. The current stable driving assistant systems must be secondary to real driving. They are capable of critical prevention and effective safe-nets and when done properly they reduce risk tenfold. Idea of beta-testing on the public roads by creating consumer disinformation is outrageous and must be stopped. It is beyond believe, how regulations are soft towards applications of technologies with direct effect on human lives. My area of expertise is in UI/UX and the simplest logic possible is called ergonomic prerequisite. Every system must exist as a 100% functionality before some form of control surface is introduced. Every control surface must be human oriented. In car UX, the main function is driving and everything that reduces risk of removing focus from the road is good UX, everything that creates distraction and complication is not only bad UX - it is dangerous. In car touch interfaces are exciting for people who hate driving and love their phones. This is the main selling point. It is the result of marketing driven design and enormous amount of production savings (when removing physical controls for dedicated functions) as a business motivational vector. This will not work long-term. The Idea of vehicles as a SaaS platform also will not work. This will be CX hell and people will reject it.

oxplot 5y ago
> Idea of beta-testing on the public roads by creating consumer disinformation is outrageous and must be stopped. Everyone driving the FSD Beta knows pretty well what they're doing and what the whole thing means, hence the very strict criteria the drivers must meet to have that feature enabled, so I don't know what disinformation you're talking about. Calling it outrageous, dangerous, etc doesn't make it so, and evidently, after many month of FSD Beta, there is yet an accident to be reported resulting from use of it, in a world where every Tesla accident makes it to front page of the news. Is it an accident waiting to happen? Well, every time you get into your car, you're entering the accident lottery. It's all about the likelihood of getting into an accident and so far numbers are in Tesla's favor. And how do you imagine a system whose improvements relies heavily on real world data is meant to obtain it without large scale participation? Have a hundred employees doing rounds in a test track? The way I see autonomous driving through being well informed, and not speaking based on outdated intuitions, Tesla's pushing the envelope just enough to make meaningful progress toward full self-driving while not overly putting people at risk. > It is beyond believe, how regulations are soft towards applications of technologies with direct effect on human lives. Heavily regulating something that's in its infancy is the surest way to kill it. Those people who are constantly bitching about why robo-taxis aren't here yet even with lax regulations, can be certain to dream of it for the rest of their lives should walls be put up too early. > In car touch interfaces are exciting for people who hate driving and love their phones. Not only. I drive a M3 and I love driving it. I don't use my phone and nor find the urge to. I enjoy the lack of clutter, and the beautiful large screen when I need to use it. Every other car I sit in, feels like a 60s Russian rocket and stresses me out. Even Tesla's own Model S and Model X feels too cluttered now with the extra driver's dash screen. > This will not work long-term. The Idea of vehicles as a SaaS platform also will not work. This will be CX hell and people will reject it. Ye, that's what they said about SaaS on the Internet. Who would, in their right minds, give up control of their service and store their data and code at the mercy of a third party. Saw how that turned out.