6 ms·

Which means that ordered systems must create disorder in order to maintain their own order, and the place where you find the greatest order to disorder is in ot

Which means that ordered systems must create disorder in order to maintain their own order, and the place where you find the greatest order to disorder is in other actively ordered systems. I blame entropy for the existence of evil, if there is a sentient omniscient creator, there better be a good reason for it, and if the reason turns out to be that entropy is the ongoing cost of His omniscient observation of every interaction, The tax of Her constant measurement I shall be both outraged and secretly satisfied that I was right all along.

systemsignal 5y ago
But life probably wouldn’t exist if entropy wasn’t increasing Life exists because it increases the entropy in the universe
- meowkit 5y ago
  > Life exists because it increases the entropy in the universe This is an concise idea I sit on quite often. Is this a commonly known idea? Among scientists/engineers/philosopher types? Would appreciate other thoughts.
  - efokschaner 5y ago
    This subject is discussed in the pop sci work of PBS spacetime https://youtu.be/GcfLZSL7YGw https://youtu.be/GcfLZSL7YGw with reference to articles and books if you're looking for more
  - monkeycantype 5y ago
    I think so, I've gone back to university to study biology, and I'm encountering two complimentary perspectives on what life is, a pragmatic classification version that says: ok - of the things that we see which ones are alive and which aren't and what are the distinguishing characteristics? and a second definitional version, blending Schroedinger and Shannon, that says life seems to be information propagating itself, but we're not going examine you on that in first year genomics.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Yes, we taught this during course 3 thermo @ MIT. The mystery is how the hell the universe started at such low entropy. We can predict the final total maximum entropy of the visible universe, we are about half way there. Life produces entropy, but not as ’efficiently’ as exploding stars.
- monkeycantype 5y ago
  Yes, in this universe, life as we know it is a salmon of order swimming up the waterfall of entropy, every flick of it tail powered by its shit fouling the river, because life in this universe is spec'd to the constraints of this universe. But perhaps we can't find the aliens because they have tunnelled out, off to another gentler universe where they grow forever in n dimensions of time and space pondering the beauty of all the integers.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    This is lovely but why would they leave their home? There are very unlikely to find another place equally comfortable to the one in which they evolved.
    - monkeycantype 5y ago
      That's a good question Ted.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  > Life exists because it increases the entropy in the universe Life causes entropy, but do you literally mean it exists because it increases entropy? I don’t see the connection, only that life causes entropy. Can you explain?
  - systemsignal 5y ago
    Not a great answer but basically everything that occurs in this Universe must increase the overall entropy of the universe (second law) Of course local entropy can decrease, hopefully in a way that is beneficial to our little corner of the universe :) Would recommend Schrodingers “what is life” if interested further in life/entropy
codeisawesome 5y ago
> Which means that ordered systems must create disorder in order to maintain their own order, and the place where you find the greatest order to disorder is in other actively ordered systems. Wow, that also nicely explains how colonisation & impoverishment of some human groups is necessary in the current framework, so that high HDI can be achieved in other human groups (which then explains various historical facts). This makes space exploration and attempts of automated resource extraction from celestial objects a noble goal, something that can achieve world peace (assuming the results are distributed).
- monkeycantype 5y ago
  Your comment seems to have been slapped, perhaps on the interpretation that you are justifying colonialism, or perhaps on the interpretation that you are engaging in space billionaire boosterism, but I read you comment very differently. That our islands of enlightenment rest on pillars of violence, and restumping our civilisation on a foundation of justice and sustainability isn't anti-enlightenment, it is the enlightenment project, and it's taking us hundreds of years not always moving forwards.
  - codeisawesome 5y ago
    Yes, I’m definitely not supporting colonisation. I’m from a country who’s prospects were stunted by merciless resource extraction. I wish it didn’t happen. I’m simply saying that, it’s the “lowest common denominator” means of achieving progress and geo-local maxima by causing ethical global minima. Hence, space exploration is a noble alternative in comparison - extract your resources from dead zones in space and have a human utopia for all here on earth.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
Entropy is a not instilled by a creator, but a natural consequence of math. If the number of states labelled ordered is substantially smaller than the number of states labelled disordered and a system moves essentially randomly between states, it is far more likely that it will spend most of its time in a disordered state. Entropy is just the universe settling into a state that cannot be meaningfully differentiated from most other states; there are far more of these than differentiable states, and so it's overwhelmingly likely that the universe ends up there.
- jtsiskin 5y ago
  …but why assume a system moves essentially randomly between states?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    1. Occam's razor 2. got any other ideas? (remember, we're talking about large scale, statistical systems)
  - figure8 5y ago
    Ergodicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodicity
- monkeycantype 5y ago
  I do get that. While I understand that some people firmly believe in a literal creator, in my case it's an anthropomorphisation of all that is unknowable and truly fundamental to the existence of our universe, just as the green woman with the spiky hat is an anthropomorphisation of liberty. The difference being that I stay open to the idea that the creator might be conscious because I have no way of disproving it, where I'd put put hundred dollars down that the green lady is a big chunk of metal with a slap of copper and asbestos over the top. I don't know if other universes with different maths are possible. Greg Egan's books take my to the limit of my conceptual capacity, but I do think there are limits to what it is possible to know from within this universe, because everything needs to be built up from axioms from this universe. I agree with your explanation, right now while I'm sitting here in this universe, but if the celestial teapot turns up this afternoon and takes us both to perpetual motion machine universe, we might start to see things differently

systemsignal 5y ago

But life probably wouldn’t exist if entropy wasn’t increasing Life exists because it increases the entropy in the universe

meowkit 5y ago
> Life exists because it increases the entropy in the universe This is an concise idea I sit on quite often. Is this a commonly known idea? Among scientists/engineers/philosopher types? Would appreciate other thoughts.
- efokschaner 5y ago
  This subject is discussed in the pop sci work of PBS spacetime https://youtu.be/GcfLZSL7YGw https://youtu.be/GcfLZSL7YGw with reference to articles and books if you're looking for more
- monkeycantype 5y ago
  I think so, I've gone back to university to study biology, and I'm encountering two complimentary perspectives on what life is, a pragmatic classification version that says: ok - of the things that we see which ones are alive and which aren't and what are the distinguishing characteristics? and a second definitional version, blending Schroedinger and Shannon, that says life seems to be information propagating itself, but we're not going examine you on that in first year genomics.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Yes, we taught this during course 3 thermo @ MIT. The mystery is how the hell the universe started at such low entropy. We can predict the final total maximum entropy of the visible universe, we are about half way there. Life produces entropy, but not as ’efficiently’ as exploding stars.
monkeycantype 5y ago
Yes, in this universe, life as we know it is a salmon of order swimming up the waterfall of entropy, every flick of it tail powered by its shit fouling the river, because life in this universe is spec'd to the constraints of this universe. But perhaps we can't find the aliens because they have tunnelled out, off to another gentler universe where they grow forever in n dimensions of time and space pondering the beauty of all the integers.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  This is lovely but why would they leave their home? There are very unlikely to find another place equally comfortable to the one in which they evolved.
  - monkeycantype 5y ago
    That's a good question Ted.
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
> Life exists because it increases the entropy in the universe Life causes entropy, but do you literally mean it exists because it increases entropy? I don’t see the connection, only that life causes entropy. Can you explain?
- systemsignal 5y ago
  Not a great answer but basically everything that occurs in this Universe must increase the overall entropy of the universe (second law) Of course local entropy can decrease, hopefully in a way that is beneficial to our little corner of the universe :) Would recommend Schrodingers “what is life” if interested further in life/entropy

codeisawesome 5y ago

> Which means that ordered systems must create disorder in order to maintain their own order, and the place where you find the greatest order to disorder is in other actively ordered systems. Wow, that also nicely explains how colonisation & impoverishment of some human groups is necessary in the current framework, so that high HDI can be achieved in other human groups (which then explains various historical facts). This makes space exploration and attempts of automated resource extraction from celestial objects a noble goal, something that can achieve world peace (assuming the results are distributed).

monkeycantype 5y ago
Your comment seems to have been slapped, perhaps on the interpretation that you are justifying colonialism, or perhaps on the interpretation that you are engaging in space billionaire boosterism, but I read you comment very differently. That our islands of enlightenment rest on pillars of violence, and restumping our civilisation on a foundation of justice and sustainability isn't anti-enlightenment, it is the enlightenment project, and it's taking us hundreds of years not always moving forwards.
- codeisawesome 5y ago
  Yes, I’m definitely not supporting colonisation. I’m from a country who’s prospects were stunted by merciless resource extraction. I wish it didn’t happen. I’m simply saying that, it’s the “lowest common denominator” means of achieving progress and geo-local maxima by causing ethical global minima. Hence, space exploration is a noble alternative in comparison - extract your resources from dead zones in space and have a human utopia for all here on earth.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

Entropy is a not instilled by a creator, but a natural consequence of math. If the number of states labelled ordered is substantially smaller than the number of states labelled disordered and a system moves essentially randomly between states, it is far more likely that it will spend most of its time in a disordered state. Entropy is just the universe settling into a state that cannot be meaningfully differentiated from most other states; there are far more of these than differentiable states, and so it's overwhelmingly likely that the universe ends up there.

jtsiskin 5y ago
…but why assume a system moves essentially randomly between states?
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  1. Occam's razor 2. got any other ideas? (remember, we're talking about large scale, statistical systems)
- figure8 5y ago
  Ergodicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodicity
monkeycantype 5y ago
I do get that. While I understand that some people firmly believe in a literal creator, in my case it's an anthropomorphisation of all that is unknowable and truly fundamental to the existence of our universe, just as the green woman with the spiky hat is an anthropomorphisation of liberty. The difference being that I stay open to the idea that the creator might be conscious because I have no way of disproving it, where I'd put put hundred dollars down that the green lady is a big chunk of metal with a slap of copper and asbestos over the top. I don't know if other universes with different maths are possible. Greg Egan's books take my to the limit of my conceptual capacity, but I do think there are limits to what it is possible to know from within this universe, because everything needs to be built up from axioms from this universe. I agree with your explanation, right now while I'm sitting here in this universe, but if the celestial teapot turns up this afternoon and takes us both to perpetual motion machine universe, we might start to see things differently