5 ms·

Reminder: if you don't own your keys, you don't own your cheese. Hardware: https://trezor.io/ https://trezor.io/ https://www.ledger.com/ https://www.ledger.co

Reminder: if you don't own your keys, you don't own your cheese. Hardware: https://trezor.io/ https://trezor.io/ https://www.ledger.com/ https://www.ledger.com/

therein 5y ago
Also https://coldcardwallet.com/ https://coldcardwallet.com/
q1w2 5y ago
Keeping your life savings in cash under your mattress is more stressful than relying on a bank.
- rglover 5y ago
  Do you need me to hold your hand when we cross the street?
  - q1w2 5y ago
    I'm not crossing a street with you if you're carrying $500K in your backpack everywhere you go. Physical possession of wealth is a bad long term strategy. Eventually people WILL find out, and you WILL become a target. One of the main functions of government is private wealth protection. Banks are a feature, not a bug.
    - rglover 5y ago
      And when they do and I do, I have a large cache of weapons and ammunition to wave at them with. If you think the government is protecting your wealth, you're incredibly naive.
      - vladTheInhaler 5y ago
        So you have to be strapped whenever you want to visit Starbucks? No thanks.
        rglover 5y ago
        Lol no. Technically I can be because I'm in an open carry state but I only do that if I'm out in the wild or traveling solo late at night.
        quickthrower2 5y ago
        Funny enough with Bitcoin you have done 90% of the mugger/robber's job for them by holding the money in a criminal-friendly format.
    - stackedinserter 5y ago
      How do you move $500K to another country? My country of origin goes apeshit when I send my parents $2000.
      - quickthrower2 5y ago
        China will go apeshit if you try to use Bitcoin to move $500k to another country. Transferring 500k between most developed countries should be easy enough, I'd probably talk to both banks first for such a large amount.
        stackedinserter 5y ago
        > I'd probably talk to both banks first for such a large amount I don't need to ask anyone to move bitcoins.
        quickthrower2 5y ago
        You need to ask someone (provide ID, KYC probably) to convert them into a currency you can spend widely though.
        stackedinserter 5y ago
        The ultimate goal is to make such conversions unnecessary.
        tornato7 5y ago
        Not if you're moving to El Salvador!
        quickthrower2 5y ago
        Fair enough you could have a life of chicken tenders there
traeregan 5y ago
Good advice, but I'll never buy another Ledger product after getting doxxed in their data leak(s): https://www.google.com/search?q=ledger+data+leak https://www.google.com/search?q=ledger+data+leak In hindsight, I should've known better than to use PII in my account. It scared me into exiting the space entirely.
symlinkk 5y ago
Why would you put thousands of dollars in a wallet you need a physical device to access? Just put your private key in your password manager, problem solved
keyb0ardninja 5y ago
I must be missing something, but can someone explain what's the point of a hardware wallet? Why not just use a password manager? Hardware wallets seem to have so many downsides, as far as I can understand. You can keep multiple copies of your password manager's database (something like a kbdx file), but you won't have multiple copies of the hardware wallet. Therefore a single point of failure. If the wallet is stolen, damaged in a house fire, crushed by some accident etc. you're done. Also, can't the firmware of the hardware wallet possibly have some unknown bugs that might cause some failure in the future? Is the hardware failure-proof? No possibility of manufacturing defect etc.? Secondly you've to buy a hardware wallet and whatever the cost, it's not free. Whereas an open source password manager like keepass is completely free (as in freedom as well as beer).
- rglover 5y ago
  > If the wallet is stolen, damaged in a house fire, crushed by some accident etc. you're done. This is incorrect. Hardware wallets typically come with a recovery seed. Even if the original device gets destroyed, the seed helps you to get access to your addresses/crypto. This covers against all of the scenarios you mentioned. For example, I just updated the firmware on my device this afternoon. Before I did it, I'm double-prompted to make sure I have my recovery seed in case the update fails. As for storing in a password manager, you certainly could. I used to print my wallets out back in the day. The hardware just makes the process a bit easier and makes mistakes on my part less likely.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  Hardware wallet protocol involves a key phrase and password you keep secure elsewhere. You need either wallet + password, or if the wallet breaks, you can buy a new one and initialize it with the seed phrase and then use the same password. You could use a multi purpose computer, e.g. a phone or PC and software to do the same, but they are more complex devices with more avenues to exploit them, e.g. a keylogger plus something than can upload your keepass file means you're robbed.
- nemo1618 5y ago
  The point is that your keys never reside on a general-purpose, internet-connected computer. It greatly reduces the attack surface. As for SPoF -- hardware wallets are initialized with a seed phrase. You can make as many copies of the seed phrase as you like. You don't even need to load them onto a new device if yours is lost or stolen; the phrase alone is sufficient to re-derive the keys on any computer (although you will sacrifice some security if you decide to recover that way).

Reminder: if you don't own your keys, you don't own your cheese. Hardware: https://trezor.io/ https://trezor.io/ https://www.ledger.com/ https://www.ledger.com/

therein 5y ago

Also https://coldcardwallet.com/ https://coldcardwallet.com/

q1w2 5y ago

Keeping your life savings in cash under your mattress is more stressful than relying on a bank.

rglover 5y ago
Do you need me to hold your hand when we cross the street?
- q1w2 5y ago
  I'm not crossing a street with you if you're carrying $500K in your backpack everywhere you go. Physical possession of wealth is a bad long term strategy. Eventually people WILL find out, and you WILL become a target. One of the main functions of government is private wealth protection. Banks are a feature, not a bug.
  - rglover 5y ago
    And when they do and I do, I have a large cache of weapons and ammunition to wave at them with. If you think the government is protecting your wealth, you're incredibly naive.
    - vladTheInhaler 5y ago
      So you have to be strapped whenever you want to visit Starbucks? No thanks.
      - rglover 5y ago
        Lol no. Technically I can be because I'm in an open carry state but I only do that if I'm out in the wild or traveling solo late at night.
      - quickthrower2 5y ago
        Funny enough with Bitcoin you have done 90% of the mugger/robber's job for them by holding the money in a criminal-friendly format.
  - stackedinserter 5y ago
    How do you move $500K to another country? My country of origin goes apeshit when I send my parents $2000.
    - quickthrower2 5y ago
      China will go apeshit if you try to use Bitcoin to move $500k to another country. Transferring 500k between most developed countries should be easy enough, I'd probably talk to both banks first for such a large amount.
      - stackedinserter 5y ago
        > I'd probably talk to both banks first for such a large amount I don't need to ask anyone to move bitcoins.
        quickthrower2 5y ago
        You need to ask someone (provide ID, KYC probably) to convert them into a currency you can spend widely though.
        stackedinserter 5y ago
        The ultimate goal is to make such conversions unnecessary.
        tornato7 5y ago
        Not if you're moving to El Salvador!
        quickthrower2 5y ago
        Fair enough you could have a life of chicken tenders there

traeregan 5y ago

Good advice, but I'll never buy another Ledger product after getting doxxed in their data leak(s): https://www.google.com/search?q=ledger+data+leak https://www.google.com/search?q=ledger+data+leak In hindsight, I should've known better than to use PII in my account. It scared me into exiting the space entirely.

symlinkk 5y ago

Why would you put thousands of dollars in a wallet you need a physical device to access? Just put your private key in your password manager, problem solved

keyb0ardninja 5y ago

I must be missing something, but can someone explain what's the point of a hardware wallet? Why not just use a password manager? Hardware wallets seem to have so many downsides, as far as I can understand. You can keep multiple copies of your password manager's database (something like a kbdx file), but you won't have multiple copies of the hardware wallet. Therefore a single point of failure. If the wallet is stolen, damaged in a house fire, crushed by some accident etc. you're done. Also, can't the firmware of the hardware wallet possibly have some unknown bugs that might cause some failure in the future? Is the hardware failure-proof? No possibility of manufacturing defect etc.? Secondly you've to buy a hardware wallet and whatever the cost, it's not free. Whereas an open source password manager like keepass is completely free (as in freedom as well as beer).

rglover 5y ago
> If the wallet is stolen, damaged in a house fire, crushed by some accident etc. you're done. This is incorrect. Hardware wallets typically come with a recovery seed. Even if the original device gets destroyed, the seed helps you to get access to your addresses/crypto. This covers against all of the scenarios you mentioned. For example, I just updated the firmware on my device this afternoon. Before I did it, I'm double-prompted to make sure I have my recovery seed in case the update fails. As for storing in a password manager, you certainly could. I used to print my wallets out back in the day. The hardware just makes the process a bit easier and makes mistakes on my part less likely.
quickthrower2 5y ago
Hardware wallet protocol involves a key phrase and password you keep secure elsewhere. You need either wallet + password, or if the wallet breaks, you can buy a new one and initialize it with the seed phrase and then use the same password. You could use a multi purpose computer, e.g. a phone or PC and software to do the same, but they are more complex devices with more avenues to exploit them, e.g. a keylogger plus something than can upload your keepass file means you're robbed.
nemo1618 5y ago
The point is that your keys never reside on a general-purpose, internet-connected computer. It greatly reduces the attack surface. As for SPoF -- hardware wallets are initialized with a seed phrase. You can make as many copies of the seed phrase as you like. You don't even need to load them onto a new device if yours is lost or stolen; the phrase alone is sufficient to re-derive the keys on any computer (although you will sacrifice some security if you decide to recover that way).