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I have, and they always immediately reverse the charge. I have never had to pay for a fraudulent charge.

naasking 5y ago
And yet, it remains the case that you experienced a bug where money was suddenly removed from your account without proper authorization, which was my point.
- cortesoft 5y ago
  and my point is that there is an easy way to recover from that situation, where as with crypto you are out of luck.
- mminer237 5y ago
  That's not a bug, it's how they were designed. Someone could steal your secret key and make an unauthorized transaction with cryptocurrencies too. Only, then you would have practically no recourse.
  - naasking 5y ago
    "Unauthorized payments" is a bug. It's an unfixable bug for which they've created a recovery system, but it's still a bug, because the system is not intrinsically secure. "Steal your secret key" is not a valid analogy to a having a credit card number stolen. The information density of a secret key is orders of magnitude higher than credit card info, and that's why it has provable security properties that credit cards do not. Credit card info can in principle be brute forced where keys cannot.
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      This means though also face the risk of losing your key and having no way to recover it. This seems like a bigger risk to me.
sneak 5y ago
You’ve had to pay an extra 2% on everything you buy (as well as everyone else) to pay for the overhead of dealing with all of the fraudulent charges. Ultimately the entire market cap of Visa/MC/AmEx illustrate how much more we’re all paying over and above the just paying for the fraud directly.
- cortesoft 5y ago
  Sure, but my credit card also gives me 2% cash back on all purchases, and since I would have to pay the extra % no matter what, may as well get the cash back, too. I also get something for that 2%… the fraud protection you mentioned, the safety of not having to carry cash, ease of use, spending tracking, the ability to dispute a charge if a vendor screws me. Honestly, credit cards have been a great thing for me. I have never paid a penny of credit card interest and get thousands of dollars in cash back every year.
  - sneak 5y ago
    You also get point and click suspicion-less suspension of your ability to transact (no burden of proof), and total financial surveillance as well. It's not all good. Having an alternative to these privacy-destroying systems is a good thing for society. (The cash back you receive does not cover the increase in prices that are passed on to you. It is ultimately a losing trade for you.)
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      > The cash back you receive does not cover the increase in prices that are passed on to you Very few places charge a different rate for credit card vs cash purchases, so I would have to pay the increased cost whether I use a credit card or not. Since I have to pay it anyway, might as well get the cash back. Also, while you are right that I could hypothetically have my account suspended for no reason, it has never happened in the 25 years I have been using credit cards. I also mitigate this risk by having more than one credit card with different providers. However, I have had merchants fail to deliver something I purchased and had to use the chargeback feature of my card multiple times, something I couldn’t do with crypto. I don’t think I want to try to eliminate hypothetical risks that are unlikely at the cost if incurring very likely risks that I know will happen. This seems like people who don’t wear a seatbelt because they are worried they will be trapped in a burning car unable to get out. Sure, that is possible, but not nearly as likely as being in a car accident where a seatbelt would save you from injury or death.

And yet, it remains the case that you experienced a bug where money was suddenly removed from your account without proper authorization, which was my point.

cortesoft 5y ago
and my point is that there is an easy way to recover from that situation, where as with crypto you are out of luck.
mminer237 5y ago
That's not a bug, it's how they were designed. Someone could steal your secret key and make an unauthorized transaction with cryptocurrencies too. Only, then you would have practically no recourse.
- naasking 5y ago
  "Unauthorized payments" is a bug. It's an unfixable bug for which they've created a recovery system, but it's still a bug, because the system is not intrinsically secure. "Steal your secret key" is not a valid analogy to a having a credit card number stolen. The information density of a secret key is orders of magnitude higher than credit card info, and that's why it has provable security properties that credit cards do not. Credit card info can in principle be brute forced where keys cannot.
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    This means though also face the risk of losing your key and having no way to recover it. This seems like a bigger risk to me.

sneak 5y ago

You’ve had to pay an extra 2% on everything you buy (as well as everyone else) to pay for the overhead of dealing with all of the fraudulent charges. Ultimately the entire market cap of Visa/MC/AmEx illustrate how much more we’re all paying over and above the just paying for the fraud directly.

cortesoft 5y ago
Sure, but my credit card also gives me 2% cash back on all purchases, and since I would have to pay the extra % no matter what, may as well get the cash back, too. I also get something for that 2%… the fraud protection you mentioned, the safety of not having to carry cash, ease of use, spending tracking, the ability to dispute a charge if a vendor screws me. Honestly, credit cards have been a great thing for me. I have never paid a penny of credit card interest and get thousands of dollars in cash back every year.
- sneak 5y ago
  You also get point and click suspicion-less suspension of your ability to transact (no burden of proof), and total financial surveillance as well. It's not all good. Having an alternative to these privacy-destroying systems is a good thing for society. (The cash back you receive does not cover the increase in prices that are passed on to you. It is ultimately a losing trade for you.)
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    > The cash back you receive does not cover the increase in prices that are passed on to you Very few places charge a different rate for credit card vs cash purchases, so I would have to pay the increased cost whether I use a credit card or not. Since I have to pay it anyway, might as well get the cash back. Also, while you are right that I could hypothetically have my account suspended for no reason, it has never happened in the 25 years I have been using credit cards. I also mitigate this risk by having more than one credit card with different providers. However, I have had merchants fail to deliver something I purchased and had to use the chargeback feature of my card multiple times, something I couldn’t do with crypto. I don’t think I want to try to eliminate hypothetical risks that are unlikely at the cost if incurring very likely risks that I know will happen. This seems like people who don’t wear a seatbelt because they are worried they will be trapped in a burning car unable to get out. Sure, that is possible, but not nearly as likely as being in a car accident where a seatbelt would save you from injury or death.