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I have never had "bugs" from my bank or money that suddenly got stole / removed from my account. Yet in crypto land this seems to be daily news. Far too much t

I have never had "bugs" from my bank or money that suddenly got stole / removed from my account. Yet in crypto land this seems to be daily news. Far too much trust and too little control in systems like DeFi. It all sounds wonderful in theory but we fail to see the big impacts of human errors.

naasking 5y ago
Never had fraudulent charges on your credit card?
- robjan 5y ago
  There's a mechanism for putting that right
  - NullPrefix 5y ago
    Complaining on social media isn't really a sound mechanism.
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      Every time I have had fraudulent charges on my credit card, it was the credit card company who spotted it and reversed the charge before I even notified them.
      - NullPrefix 5y ago
        Good for you. Everytime there was a virus on a computer, the antivirus spotted it and reversed its actions before I even noticed them.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Yeah totally. My credit limit on my Chase Freedom card is $90M, and this one time I bought something for $90M when I thought it was $90, and I was totally unable to reverse it.
- cortesoft 5y ago
  I have, and they always immediately reverse the charge. I have never had to pay for a fraudulent charge.
  - naasking 5y ago
    And yet, it remains the case that you experienced a bug where money was suddenly removed from your account without proper authorization, which was my point.
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      and my point is that there is an easy way to recover from that situation, where as with crypto you are out of luck.
    - mminer237 5y ago
      That's not a bug, it's how they were designed. Someone could steal your secret key and make an unauthorized transaction with cryptocurrencies too. Only, then you would have practically no recourse.
      - naasking 5y ago
        "Unauthorized payments" is a bug. It's an unfixable bug for which they've created a recovery system, but it's still a bug, because the system is not intrinsically secure. "Steal your secret key" is not a valid analogy to a having a credit card number stolen. The information density of a secret key is orders of magnitude higher than credit card info, and that's why it has provable security properties that credit cards do not. Credit card info can in principle be brute forced where keys cannot.
        cortesoft 5y ago
        This means though also face the risk of losing your key and having no way to recover it. This seems like a bigger risk to me.
  - 5y ago
- adrr 5y ago
  They are defrauding the merchant or the bank. I have zero risk.
lottin 5y ago
It doesn't sound wonderful in theory. It's sounds awful. And in practice it is too.
- bduerst 5y ago
  It sounds wonderful when waxed praises from a crypto enthusiast. The people who know better don't care to refute it enough, IMO.
isolli 5y ago
Ahem: "Wells Fargo clients began to notice the fraud after being charged unanticipated fees and receiving unexpected credit or debit cards or lines of credit." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_scan...
- pradn 5y ago
  This is a rather rare occurrence, and was fixed, with legal consequences for the bank.
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    Were the consequences actually impactful? Or did they only amount to a slap on the wrist and brief period of public shame before returning to business as usual?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
thebean11 5y ago
I have had other peoples money deposited in my account many times due to bad OCR for checks!
- sneak 5y ago
  Wouldn’t bad OCR on a check change the account to be debited, not the account into which it is deposited?
  - thebean11 5y ago
    It specifically happened with payments from the IRS (I was getting someone's refunds) so my assumption was some wonky automated deposit handling on the bank's end. OCR is my theory because we had the same account number, except a 1 was switched to a 7.
danuker 5y ago
Your anecdote is as powerful as mine: I have never lost crypto due to a technical glitch. As for bank glitches, here are some recent ones: https://eu.freep.com/story/money/2020/06/30/scams-glitches-scare-bank-customers-who-notice-money-missing/3277581001/ https://eu.freep.com/story/money/2020/06/30/scams-glitches-s... https://www.verdict.co.uk/chase-bank-accidentally-makes-man-billionaire/ https://www.verdict.co.uk/chase-bank-accidentally-makes-man-...
tornato7 5y ago
Nobody except the 'bank' in this case lost money. In fact, Compound also has a treasury that can and has been used to pay out users affected by bugs. Some small percentage of every loan on compound goes to fund the treasury. It's quite a good system.

naasking 5y ago

Never had fraudulent charges on your credit card?

robjan 5y ago
There's a mechanism for putting that right
- NullPrefix 5y ago
  Complaining on social media isn't really a sound mechanism.
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    Every time I have had fraudulent charges on my credit card, it was the credit card company who spotted it and reversed the charge before I even notified them.
    - NullPrefix 5y ago
      Good for you. Everytime there was a virus on a computer, the antivirus spotted it and reversed its actions before I even noticed them.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
thehappypm 5y ago
Yeah totally. My credit limit on my Chase Freedom card is $90M, and this one time I bought something for $90M when I thought it was $90, and I was totally unable to reverse it.
cortesoft 5y ago
I have, and they always immediately reverse the charge. I have never had to pay for a fraudulent charge.
- naasking 5y ago
  And yet, it remains the case that you experienced a bug where money was suddenly removed from your account without proper authorization, which was my point.
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    and my point is that there is an easy way to recover from that situation, where as with crypto you are out of luck.
  - mminer237 5y ago
    That's not a bug, it's how they were designed. Someone could steal your secret key and make an unauthorized transaction with cryptocurrencies too. Only, then you would have practically no recourse.
    - naasking 5y ago
      "Unauthorized payments" is a bug. It's an unfixable bug for which they've created a recovery system, but it's still a bug, because the system is not intrinsically secure. "Steal your secret key" is not a valid analogy to a having a credit card number stolen. The information density of a secret key is orders of magnitude higher than credit card info, and that's why it has provable security properties that credit cards do not. Credit card info can in principle be brute forced where keys cannot.
      - cortesoft 5y ago
        This means though also face the risk of losing your key and having no way to recover it. This seems like a bigger risk to me.
- 5y ago
adrr 5y ago
They are defrauding the merchant or the bank. I have zero risk.

lottin 5y ago

It doesn't sound wonderful in theory. It's sounds awful. And in practice it is too.

bduerst 5y ago
It sounds wonderful when waxed praises from a crypto enthusiast. The people who know better don't care to refute it enough, IMO.

isolli 5y ago

Ahem: "Wells Fargo clients began to notice the fraud after being charged unanticipated fees and receiving unexpected credit or debit cards or lines of credit." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_scan...

pradn 5y ago
This is a rather rare occurrence, and was fixed, with legal consequences for the bank.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  Were the consequences actually impactful? Or did they only amount to a slap on the wrist and brief period of public shame before returning to business as usual?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

thebean11 5y ago

I have had other peoples money deposited in my account many times due to bad OCR for checks!

sneak 5y ago
Wouldn’t bad OCR on a check change the account to be debited, not the account into which it is deposited?
- thebean11 5y ago
  It specifically happened with payments from the IRS (I was getting someone's refunds) so my assumption was some wonky automated deposit handling on the bank's end. OCR is my theory because we had the same account number, except a 1 was switched to a 7.

danuker 5y ago

Your anecdote is as powerful as mine: I have never lost crypto due to a technical glitch. As for bank glitches, here are some recent ones: https://eu.freep.com/story/money/2020/06/30/scams-glitches-scare-bank-customers-who-notice-money-missing/3277581001/ https://eu.freep.com/story/money/2020/06/30/scams-glitches-s... https://www.verdict.co.uk/chase-bank-accidentally-makes-man-billionaire/ https://www.verdict.co.uk/chase-bank-accidentally-makes-man-...

tornato7 5y ago

Nobody except the 'bank' in this case lost money. In fact, Compound also has a treasury that can and has been used to pay out users affected by bugs. Some small percentage of every loan on compound goes to fund the treasury. It's quite a good system.