7 ms·

A 3D action MMO is the only interesting project anyone can undertake today, everything else consumes too much energy. Minimalistic open-source is the only way

by bullen 5y ago

A 3D action MMO is the only interesting project anyone can undertake today, everything else consumes too much energy. Minimalistic open-source is the only way forward. The complexity of Unreal and Unity is way to far gone to be able to build anything original. Browsers are way too complex to make 3D scale, even with WASM your turnaround will be too long for the kind of iteration speed needed. The author probably bought the stock. I wrote something on the subject a while back (very biased): http://move.rupy.se/file/park_engine.html http://move.rupy.se/file/park_engine.html

meheleventyone 5y ago
> Browsers are way too complex to make 3D scale, even with WASM your turnaround will be too long for the kind of iteration speed needed. I want to challenge this because it's wrong. And the best way to do it is to show you how fast iteration times can be: https://youtu.be/jvDz72FAOd0 https://youtu.be/jvDz72FAOd0
- bullen 5y ago
  That does not teach me how this works, what compiles what, how, where etc. I use dynamic .so/.dll hot-deploy, which can reload native code in microseconds without disturbing state. My game can render 600 non-instanced skin meshed characters on a 10W Jetson Nano.
  - meheleventyone 5y ago
    Sorry my point in the demo isn't to tell you how it works (we're compiling TS to JS, not really mind blowing) but to show you what is possible in terms of iteration time with a browser native game engine. I'm also not trying to say you can't have fast iteration time in other ways. Just that the statement about the browser was incorrect.
    - bullen 5y ago
      Javascript is not usable, you wont be able to make anything useful if that is your underlying VM. You need fast turnaround AND performance at the same time. You are sinking your cost into a dead-end proving the articles point.
      - meheleventyone 5y ago
        > Javascript is not usable, you wont be able to make anything useful if that is your underlying VM. I've been making games professionally across a wide gamut of technologies for over sixteen years and that's simply not true. Further there are loads of games written in JS that prove it's not true! Believe it or not I've actually written game code in languages SLOWER than JS for shipping titles!
        bullen 5y ago
        I would be very interested in real examples!
        meheleventyone 5y ago
        Well https://dotbigbang.com https://dotbigbang.com at the very top of this page has loads. Krunker (https://krunker.io/ https://krunker.io/) is a browser based multiplayer shooter. CrossCode (http://www.cross-code.com/en/home http://www.cross-code.com/en/home) is another pretty famous one that is also on Steam and very popular. Slither.io (http://slither.io/ http://slither.io/) and really the whole genre that these sorts of games became. The whole Godot Engine IDE (https://editor.godotengine.org/releases/latest/ https://editor.godotengine.org/releases/latest/) has a web version. Game Dev Tycoon (https://store.steampowered.com/app/239820/Game_Dev_Tycoon/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/239820/Game_Dev_Tycoon/) is made with JS. Curious Expedition (https://store.steampowered.com/app/358130/Curious_Expedition/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/358130/Curious_Expedition...) was written in CoffeeScript which is compiled to JS. And so on, and on. There are literally loads including umpteen multiplayer ports of Quake 3 and that sort of thing. Throw in all the JS13k games. Numerous games people have published using the Unity web exporter and so on. All the little web games people have released on itch.io, all the stuff made with Twine and Bitsy. And on, and on. The idea that JS is too slow to make games with is pretty silly and smacks a bit of willful ignorance.

by bullen 5y ago

meheleventyone 5y ago

> Browsers are way too complex to make 3D scale, even with WASM your turnaround will be too long for the kind of iteration speed needed. I want to challenge this because it's wrong. And the best way to do it is to show you how fast iteration times can be: https://youtu.be/jvDz72FAOd0 https://youtu.be/jvDz72FAOd0

bullen 5y ago
That does not teach me how this works, what compiles what, how, where etc. I use dynamic .so/.dll hot-deploy, which can reload native code in microseconds without disturbing state. My game can render 600 non-instanced skin meshed characters on a 10W Jetson Nano.
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  Sorry my point in the demo isn't to tell you how it works (we're compiling TS to JS, not really mind blowing) but to show you what is possible in terms of iteration time with a browser native game engine. I'm also not trying to say you can't have fast iteration time in other ways. Just that the statement about the browser was incorrect.
  - bullen 5y ago
    Javascript is not usable, you wont be able to make anything useful if that is your underlying VM. You need fast turnaround AND performance at the same time. You are sinking your cost into a dead-end proving the articles point.
    - meheleventyone 5y ago
      > Javascript is not usable, you wont be able to make anything useful if that is your underlying VM. I've been making games professionally across a wide gamut of technologies for over sixteen years and that's simply not true. Further there are loads of games written in JS that prove it's not true! Believe it or not I've actually written game code in languages SLOWER than JS for shipping titles!
      - bullen 5y ago
        I would be very interested in real examples!
        meheleventyone 5y ago
        Well https://dotbigbang.com https://dotbigbang.com at the very top of this page has loads. Krunker (https://krunker.io/ https://krunker.io/) is a browser based multiplayer shooter. CrossCode (http://www.cross-code.com/en/home http://www.cross-code.com/en/home) is another pretty famous one that is also on Steam and very popular. Slither.io (http://slither.io/ http://slither.io/) and really the whole genre that these sorts of games became. The whole Godot Engine IDE (https://editor.godotengine.org/releases/latest/ https://editor.godotengine.org/releases/latest/) has a web version. Game Dev Tycoon (https://store.steampowered.com/app/239820/Game_Dev_Tycoon/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/239820/Game_Dev_Tycoon/) is made with JS. Curious Expedition (https://store.steampowered.com/app/358130/Curious_Expedition/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/358130/Curious_Expedition...) was written in CoffeeScript which is compiled to JS. And so on, and on. There are literally loads including umpteen multiplayer ports of Quake 3 and that sort of thing. Throw in all the JS13k games. Numerous games people have published using the Unity web exporter and so on. All the little web games people have released on itch.io, all the stuff made with Twine and Bitsy. And on, and on. The idea that JS is too slow to make games with is pretty silly and smacks a bit of willful ignorance.