5 ms·

From the article: > All companies (regardless of size and paycheck) make competent developers go through grueling 4–7 rounds of interviews. It's possible to g

by nickjj 5y ago

From the article: > All companies (regardless of size and paycheck) make competent developers go through grueling 4–7 rounds of interviews. It's possible to get hired with zero interviews, you need to put yourself into a position where this is the norm. Every single contract / freelance job I've ever taken happened without a formal interview. I never had to do a whiteboard test or explain an algorithm to someone. I never had to write 1 line of code or even talk about lower level programming things specifically for the sake of getting a job for a specific company. All I did was talk to them over email or Zoom while we discussed what they wanted me to do for the job. Then it went straight to a statement of work / contract and that's it. Most of these happened where the person hiring reached out to me directly. I don't use any freelance platforms or marketplaces. Now, the debatable part here is "competent developer". I won't make any claims that I'm competent but I have done a ton of assorted gigs over the years and lots of them lasted for multiple years (and still do). For context I sent out 47 invoices in 2020. If you hate the idea of parading around interviews and working in an office please understand you have options. Besides part time high school jobs I never worked in a non-remote position in my life.

mattmanser 5y ago
This doesn't magically happen, a new developer can sit in their room all year and won't get a single lead unless they do something to get them. You haven't said how, but given you've got an extensive blog and several courses, is that how you're getting your leads? And publically demonstrating your competence? And you shouldn't forget that writing blogs and teaching courses is a whole different set of skills to programming, that have to be learnt and worked on.
- k__ 5y ago
  "writing blogs and teaching courses is a whole different set of skills to programming" True. I'm a tech blogger and teacher and I sometimes get offered development and management jobs.
- nickjj 5y ago
  I didn't have a blog until about 2015. Most of the work I've gotten happened before I had a site or created courses. Prior to that I had no background in writing or making videos. I decided to try those approaches on a whim. It literally started with "I wonder what would happen if...", and then I started working on it the next day but neither are necessary to find leads. I've outlined how I started freelancing (pre-blog / courses) here: https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/how-to-start-a-successful-freelance-business-as-a-software-developer https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/how-to-start-a-successful-fre... Everything there still applies today except for going to physical meetups because of Covid. You are right tho, you won't be able to sit in a locked room because no one will find you. You need to do something to make businesses aware of you and there's lots of options based on what you're comfortable doing. Eventually you can get to a "in Soviet Russia, job finds you" world where you sit back while picking and choosing the contracts you want to take on but it will take a good amount of effort to get there, but you can still be successful doing freelance work waaaay before that happens.
  - RNCTX 5y ago
    Sure, you're just swimming in consulting work by now. You just maintain video courses, ebooks, mailing lists, multiple social media profiles for marketing all of the above, and an endless supply of blog posts because you enjoy doing all this in your spare time.
    - nickjj 5y ago
      > You just maintain video courses, ebooks, mailing lists, multiple social media profiles for marketing all of the above, and an endless supply of blog posts because you enjoy doing all this in your spare time. You're not wrong but it's probably not as many hours as you think to do all of the above (and more). I average around 15 hours a week on that stuff and a few things you've listed are close to no time at all. For example I only send one email out a year and I haven't written an ebook in like 3-4 years. I still stand by my claim that you can make a living as a freelancer without doing any of the above. That's not based on theory either, it's what I did for over a decade. I only started a blog and doing courses because I thought it would be fun and it felt like a good combination of things to do with contract work because both things feed each other in a nice way.
- siva7 5y ago
  He is talking about senior developers. A "new" one will have to build good credentials over the years with different companies before being able to pull a contract without doing a single formal interview. I can confirm that this is also possible without having any blog or whatever, there are enough companies who don't play the FAANG HR game.
kilroy123 5y ago
I've only walked right into a job once. I had worked with one of the head guys at another job, weeks before they hired me. So they clearly knew I knew my stuff and was capable. I've found it's very rare to do this nowadays. Even if you know someone at the company, you'll likely get grilled in a technical interview. Unless it's a very tiny company / startup.
dagw 5y ago
All companies (regardless of size and paycheck) make competent developers go through grueling 4–7 rounds of interviews. I've interviewed at many companies of all sizes in several countries in Europe and never faced anything closed to that. My current job I was invited by a former colleague to apply and the interview was mostly them convincing me to quit my job and work for them.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  I think that's mostly US corporation thing, all five jobs I've had in EU - including two in current fintech unicorns - had at most 2 rounds of technical interviews, then one with manager/director of department. Unless you count 15 minute call with recruiter at the beginning as "interview round", there was nothing more.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    In my entire career in the US, including at multinational software companies, I have never had to go through more than 2 rounds of interviews. If I were faced with that prospect, I'd probably just pass on the position.
- siva7 5y ago
  HN is very silicon valley-focused but i've never experienced in europe anything remotely like these horror stories about hiring you see every week here.
  - alliao 5y ago
    pays quite different too no?
- myth_drannon 5y ago
  That's the new standard at least for companies in Canada and US. Everyone says the market is hot but with 6 rounds of interviews where the companies nitpick on every little thing is not a signal that they actually really need more developers.
mnw21cam 5y ago
> From the article: >> All companies (regardless of size and paycheck) make competent developers go through grueling 4–7 rounds of interviews. I don't see this in the article. Are you reading the same one as me?
- nickjj 5y ago
  It was in a bullet point under the "The final destination" header. If you CTRL+f the page for "all companies" you'll find it unless Medium is doing some crazy A / B testing where chunks of the article have different content.
  - mnw21cam 5y ago
    No results for that search. Here is the full text of the article I see: The Great Resignation Movement is turning the US job market upside down. Around 4 million employees left their jobs in July 2021, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. This should be surprising, especially in an aftermath of the pandemic, where the economy of the entire world is in shambles.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  It's in there. Go down to "The Final Destination." It's one of the bullets.
cdogl 5y ago
Not every problem can be solved with contractors. Many products and systems need long term owners and maintainers and people involved need to be part of a team. That team culture is precious and the red flags can be hard to discern which is why teams come up with such lengthy processes. They're painful but I've yet to see a plausible alternative.
- zrail 5y ago
  And yet the average tenure in a software engineer role is just under 3 years. That's not exactly long term. The real reason why hiring freelancers and contractors is easier than employees is that the cost of firing an employee is non-zero. https://www.facilitiesnet.com/commercialofficefacilities/article/Tech-Trends-Office-Needs-Evolving-for-Tech-Firms--19319 https://www.facilitiesnet.com/commercialofficefacilities/art...
- JohnFen 5y ago
  I seriously doubt that the lengthy processes are achieving that.
ThePhysicist 5y ago
I second this. Often, working as a freelancer is also a great way to get offers for full-time employment without any interviewing. Companies like to keep good people around, so if you're doing good work as a freelancer you'll often get an offer to join the company as an employee. Personally I used that strategy to get some really great deals, and I don't think I could've negotiated the terms I got if I had applied to these jobs as a regular candidate.
chrisweekly 5y ago
Good point and thanks for sharing. I've had some similar experiences (though my current long-term contract required the "standard" tech interview process). Tangent: I followed your profile's link to your blog. I like what I saw (wrt Docker practices). Have you written about your freelance / contract gig experiences per se? I've been mostly remote for the last 20y, strictly remote since starting my tiny S-Corp / committing to consulting FT 4-5y ago, and I'd be interested to compare notes.
- nickjj 5y ago
  Is there a specific freelance experience you want to know more about? Like, finding gigs or how I manage the business? There's a few dev / business'ish posts at https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/tag/dev-business-tips-tricks-and-tutorials https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/tag/dev-business-tips-tricks-.... I have posts on finding gigs, accepting payments, invoicing, protecting and licensing the code you write and things like that. Do you have a site? Comparing notes is fun.
nly 5y ago
As a contractor your very disposable if it doesn't work out.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Exactly why a company would hire a contractor - no long-term commitments. Hence 'gig industry' companies.

by nickjj 5y ago

mattmanser 5y ago

This doesn't magically happen, a new developer can sit in their room all year and won't get a single lead unless they do something to get them. You haven't said how, but given you've got an extensive blog and several courses, is that how you're getting your leads? And publically demonstrating your competence? And you shouldn't forget that writing blogs and teaching courses is a whole different set of skills to programming, that have to be learnt and worked on.

k__ 5y ago
"writing blogs and teaching courses is a whole different set of skills to programming" True. I'm a tech blogger and teacher and I sometimes get offered development and management jobs.
nickjj 5y ago
I didn't have a blog until about 2015. Most of the work I've gotten happened before I had a site or created courses. Prior to that I had no background in writing or making videos. I decided to try those approaches on a whim. It literally started with "I wonder what would happen if...", and then I started working on it the next day but neither are necessary to find leads. I've outlined how I started freelancing (pre-blog / courses) here: https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/how-to-start-a-successful-freelance-business-as-a-software-developer https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/how-to-start-a-successful-fre... Everything there still applies today except for going to physical meetups because of Covid. You are right tho, you won't be able to sit in a locked room because no one will find you. You need to do something to make businesses aware of you and there's lots of options based on what you're comfortable doing. Eventually you can get to a "in Soviet Russia, job finds you" world where you sit back while picking and choosing the contracts you want to take on but it will take a good amount of effort to get there, but you can still be successful doing freelance work waaaay before that happens.
- RNCTX 5y ago
  Sure, you're just swimming in consulting work by now. You just maintain video courses, ebooks, mailing lists, multiple social media profiles for marketing all of the above, and an endless supply of blog posts because you enjoy doing all this in your spare time.
  - nickjj 5y ago
    > You just maintain video courses, ebooks, mailing lists, multiple social media profiles for marketing all of the above, and an endless supply of blog posts because you enjoy doing all this in your spare time. You're not wrong but it's probably not as many hours as you think to do all of the above (and more). I average around 15 hours a week on that stuff and a few things you've listed are close to no time at all. For example I only send one email out a year and I haven't written an ebook in like 3-4 years. I still stand by my claim that you can make a living as a freelancer without doing any of the above. That's not based on theory either, it's what I did for over a decade. I only started a blog and doing courses because I thought it would be fun and it felt like a good combination of things to do with contract work because both things feed each other in a nice way.
siva7 5y ago
He is talking about senior developers. A "new" one will have to build good credentials over the years with different companies before being able to pull a contract without doing a single formal interview. I can confirm that this is also possible without having any blog or whatever, there are enough companies who don't play the FAANG HR game.

kilroy123 5y ago

I've only walked right into a job once. I had worked with one of the head guys at another job, weeks before they hired me. So they clearly knew I knew my stuff and was capable. I've found it's very rare to do this nowadays. Even if you know someone at the company, you'll likely get grilled in a technical interview. Unless it's a very tiny company / startup.

dagw 5y ago

All companies (regardless of size and paycheck) make competent developers go through grueling 4–7 rounds of interviews. I've interviewed at many companies of all sizes in several countries in Europe and never faced anything closed to that. My current job I was invited by a former colleague to apply and the interview was mostly them convincing me to quit my job and work for them.

KptMarchewa 5y ago
I think that's mostly US corporation thing, all five jobs I've had in EU - including two in current fintech unicorns - had at most 2 rounds of technical interviews, then one with manager/director of department. Unless you count 15 minute call with recruiter at the beginning as "interview round", there was nothing more.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  In my entire career in the US, including at multinational software companies, I have never had to go through more than 2 rounds of interviews. If I were faced with that prospect, I'd probably just pass on the position.
siva7 5y ago
HN is very silicon valley-focused but i've never experienced in europe anything remotely like these horror stories about hiring you see every week here.
- alliao 5y ago
  pays quite different too no?
myth_drannon 5y ago
That's the new standard at least for companies in Canada and US. Everyone says the market is hot but with 6 rounds of interviews where the companies nitpick on every little thing is not a signal that they actually really need more developers.

mnw21cam 5y ago

> From the article: >> All companies (regardless of size and paycheck) make competent developers go through grueling 4–7 rounds of interviews. I don't see this in the article. Are you reading the same one as me?

nickjj 5y ago
It was in a bullet point under the "The final destination" header. If you CTRL+f the page for "all companies" you'll find it unless Medium is doing some crazy A / B testing where chunks of the article have different content.
- mnw21cam 5y ago
  No results for that search. Here is the full text of the article I see: The Great Resignation Movement is turning the US job market upside down. Around 4 million employees left their jobs in July 2021, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. This should be surprising, especially in an aftermath of the pandemic, where the economy of the entire world is in shambles.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
It's in there. Go down to "The Final Destination." It's one of the bullets.

cdogl 5y ago

Not every problem can be solved with contractors. Many products and systems need long term owners and maintainers and people involved need to be part of a team. That team culture is precious and the red flags can be hard to discern which is why teams come up with such lengthy processes. They're painful but I've yet to see a plausible alternative.

zrail 5y ago
And yet the average tenure in a software engineer role is just under 3 years. That's not exactly long term. The real reason why hiring freelancers and contractors is easier than employees is that the cost of firing an employee is non-zero. https://www.facilitiesnet.com/commercialofficefacilities/article/Tech-Trends-Office-Needs-Evolving-for-Tech-Firms--19319 https://www.facilitiesnet.com/commercialofficefacilities/art...
JohnFen 5y ago
I seriously doubt that the lengthy processes are achieving that.

ThePhysicist 5y ago

I second this. Often, working as a freelancer is also a great way to get offers for full-time employment without any interviewing. Companies like to keep good people around, so if you're doing good work as a freelancer you'll often get an offer to join the company as an employee. Personally I used that strategy to get some really great deals, and I don't think I could've negotiated the terms I got if I had applied to these jobs as a regular candidate.

chrisweekly 5y ago

Good point and thanks for sharing. I've had some similar experiences (though my current long-term contract required the "standard" tech interview process). Tangent: I followed your profile's link to your blog. I like what I saw (wrt Docker practices). Have you written about your freelance / contract gig experiences per se? I've been mostly remote for the last 20y, strictly remote since starting my tiny S-Corp / committing to consulting FT 4-5y ago, and I'd be interested to compare notes.

nickjj 5y ago
Is there a specific freelance experience you want to know more about? Like, finding gigs or how I manage the business? There's a few dev / business'ish posts at https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/tag/dev-business-tips-tricks-and-tutorials https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/tag/dev-business-tips-tricks-.... I have posts on finding gigs, accepting payments, invoicing, protecting and licensing the code you write and things like that. Do you have a site? Comparing notes is fun.

nly 5y ago

As a contractor your very disposable if it doesn't work out.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Exactly why a company would hire a contractor - no long-term commitments. Hence 'gig industry' companies.