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It seems encrypted messengers are turning into cryptocurrency ponzi scam projects. Keybase -> Stellar Session -> Oxen/Loki Whatsapp -> Diem/Novi Signal ->

It seems encrypted messengers are turning into cryptocurrency ponzi scam projects. Keybase -> Stellar Session -> Oxen/Loki Whatsapp -> Diem/Novi Signal -> Mobilecoin [0] There really is no defence of introducing this at all and it's sad that this is becoming a trend, looks like one has to look at Threema, Wire and possibly Element as our only hope. [0] https://www.wired.com/story/signal-mobilecoin-payments-messaging-cryptocurrency/ https://www.wired.com/story/signal-mobilecoin-payments-messa...

xorcist 5y ago
Conversations too. It works well, ticks all the boxes except voip, and is available on f-droid.
- colesantiago 5y ago
  But Session being linked to a cryptocurrency project is a non starter and inexcusable.
  - md_ 5y ago
    Why?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - colesantiago 5y ago
      Take a look a Signal, which the whole of Signal is to be a private WhatsApp alternative not a trojan horse to introduce a cryptocurrency pump and dump scam. [0] So for Session, I am unfortunately also sceptical on them as well, I would say they are arguably worse since their project is embedded within cryptocurrencies and it won't be long until they force their Loki/Oxen coin in their apps. [0] https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/signal.html https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/signal.html
      - md_ 5y ago
        That didn't answer my question. How does Signal supporting Mobilecoin or Session supporting--whatever this is--impact your usage of Signal/Session?
        colesantiago 5y ago
        > That didn't answer my question. I did, you just didn't like the answer.
        md_ 5y ago
        I might not have understood it, which is different. Can you make it a little more explicit for those of us who are slow?
        darcys22 5y ago
        It didnt really. It was just cryptocurrency = bad
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- zaik 5y ago
  But Conversations has voip... I use it all the time.
  - xorcist 5y ago
    Indeed it does! Just not for group calls.
rhn_mk1 5y ago
Don't forget XMPP, and Jami as the hope.
- colesantiago 5y ago
  I told a person I know to use XMPP to which they said "Which XMPP app should I use" To which I dismissed XMPP its own as a viable alternative to anything, there might be hope for Jami as long as it is not linked to anything cryptocurrency and the security is sound.
  - upofadown 5y ago
    Then: 'What platform?" Then: Tell them.
    - colesantiago 5y ago
      No, the answer was WhatsApp which they unfortunately went back to. The point is, there are far too many XMPP clients for which it is very unlikely that their friends are on and have interoperability features.
  - dsr_ 5y ago
    Your objection is that there are multiple clients for an open protocol?
    - colesantiago 5y ago
      To which my non technical friends don't know which to choose and didn't bother at all and went back to using WhatsApp. If that is the consequence for multiple fragmented clients then no thanks.
      - zaik 5y ago
        Just recommend the client you are using?
md_ 5y ago
I sort of understand people feeling like Signal/Mobilecoin is a get-rich-quick scam (though I really don't think it is), but I don't understand why, beyond the ickiness if that were the case, it actually matters. Does it somehow reduce the effectiveness of Signal Messenger? The argument against Signal here seems to rest on the weakest foundation. As I understand it, it's something like: - This could be a get-rich cryptocurrency scheme. We don't have any evidence for it, but you can assume the worst. - The project embarking on this scheme shows they don't have users' best interests at heart. - If they don't have users' best interests at heart, how can I trust any of their other decisions? This is not an argument I'd want to hang my hat on.
- egberts1 5y ago
  if Signal can do Mobilecoin without any access to our Contact address book, then I expect a mass adoption by the general populace.
atatatat 5y ago
Matrix (Element and friends) is the future.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
Where is the scam part? I don't need to use their crypto, its just built in, and its not dishonest in any way. There is no monopoly, and suggesting they should run encryption and servers all day with no compensation and free isn't sustainable, in fact that makes me even more suspicious that it is a govenment run system. I prefer that I can at least see it being sustainable, and if its a P2P protocol it could be free, but if they paid the developers well I would feel even better for various reasons.
- INTPenis 5y ago
  You could flip that argument too and say that the thousands of dollars one must pay to run an Oxen node is a threshold that intelligence agencies and governments can easily afford. While the idealists who just want to support the onion routing with bandwidth for a few bucks a month are shut out. That's why tor is so massive, because anyone can support it. But that's also what makes tor vulnerable to sybil attacks. It's a catch 22. Either way, my warnings bells go off when someone asks for thousands of dollars for crypto coins that have no real advantage like Monero. Another question that comes up with Oxen is what happens if it's adopted. Because afaik each onion routing node is also calculating the blockchain. So the more transactions happen, the heavier these calculations get, right? So each onion routing node will require a lot of resources eventually, if this ever takes off.
  - darcys22 5y ago
    Your statement on the intelligence agencies is incorrect. You need oxen to run the nodes not dollars, and obtaining oxen has an exponential cost due to market forces. If you want to run 1 node you can obtain the oxen pretty easily. If you want to obtain enough oxen to control 50% of the network you will need to buy more oxen than is in existence.
    - INTPenis 5y ago
      That's a really good point that I had overlooked. Thanks.
  - 5y ago
caeril 5y ago
I generally agree, but in the specific case of Session, the crypto scam is a feature. The crypto scam provides for the thousand or so independent nodes that makes a ProtonMail-style law enforcement order useless. Any centralized service like Threema is vulnerable to a court order to log, at the very least, connection metadata. It's a LOT more expensive for LE to launch a Sybil attack on Loki than to get some bootlicking judge to compel logging and/or silent client update. But yeah, I totally agree that the crypto scam is long-term unsustainable and Session needs to find a way for the users of Session to have to pay for Loki network access to keep it running. To the point above, the biggest weakness of Session, by far, is that its official packages are released and signed in Australia. There is no doubt in my mind that .AU will eventually come down hard and compel signing of compromised binary releases. They HAVE to distribute official release building and signing to multiple developers around the world, and soon.
gaius_baltar 5y ago
It's sad Tox never succeeded in getting widely used, as it solved a lot of problems (almost, multi-device was in a beta branch last time I used it). Fully distributed (while current solutions are centralized or, at best, federated), no single entity to be attacked, no dependency on phone numbers, being blessed by a server, or strange coins.
- darcys22 5y ago
  Session does all those things. The political view on cryptocurrency that causes you to label it as a bad thing means you blanket category something that adds a lot of features to session. I think tors uptake in general was limited because the FBI was able to still to track people, and here the cryptocurrency element fights against exactly that.
darcys22 5y ago
In sessions case the cryptocurrency is a protective measure thats stops eve from spinning up loads of nodes on their backend and snooping the message packets.

xorcist 5y ago

Conversations too. It works well, ticks all the boxes except voip, and is available on f-droid.

colesantiago 5y ago
But Session being linked to a cryptocurrency project is a non starter and inexcusable.
- md_ 5y ago
  Why?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    Take a look a Signal, which the whole of Signal is to be a private WhatsApp alternative not a trojan horse to introduce a cryptocurrency pump and dump scam. [0] So for Session, I am unfortunately also sceptical on them as well, I would say they are arguably worse since their project is embedded within cryptocurrencies and it won't be long until they force their Loki/Oxen coin in their apps. [0] https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/signal.html https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/signal.html
    - md_ 5y ago
      That didn't answer my question. How does Signal supporting Mobilecoin or Session supporting--whatever this is--impact your usage of Signal/Session?
      - colesantiago 5y ago
        > That didn't answer my question. I did, you just didn't like the answer.
        md_ 5y ago
        I might not have understood it, which is different. Can you make it a little more explicit for those of us who are slow?
        darcys22 5y ago
        It didnt really. It was just cryptocurrency = bad
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
zaik 5y ago
But Conversations has voip... I use it all the time.
- xorcist 5y ago
  Indeed it does! Just not for group calls.

rhn_mk1 5y ago

Don't forget XMPP, and Jami as the hope.

colesantiago 5y ago
I told a person I know to use XMPP to which they said "Which XMPP app should I use" To which I dismissed XMPP its own as a viable alternative to anything, there might be hope for Jami as long as it is not linked to anything cryptocurrency and the security is sound.
- upofadown 5y ago
  Then: 'What platform?" Then: Tell them.
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    No, the answer was WhatsApp which they unfortunately went back to. The point is, there are far too many XMPP clients for which it is very unlikely that their friends are on and have interoperability features.
- dsr_ 5y ago
  Your objection is that there are multiple clients for an open protocol?
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    To which my non technical friends don't know which to choose and didn't bother at all and went back to using WhatsApp. If that is the consequence for multiple fragmented clients then no thanks.
    - zaik 5y ago
      Just recommend the client you are using?

md_ 5y ago

I sort of understand people feeling like Signal/Mobilecoin is a get-rich-quick scam (though I really don't think it is), but I don't understand why, beyond the ickiness if that were the case, it actually matters. Does it somehow reduce the effectiveness of Signal Messenger? The argument against Signal here seems to rest on the weakest foundation. As I understand it, it's something like: - This could be a get-rich cryptocurrency scheme. We don't have any evidence for it, but you can assume the worst. - The project embarking on this scheme shows they don't have users' best interests at heart. - If they don't have users' best interests at heart, how can I trust any of their other decisions? This is not an argument I'd want to hang my hat on.

egberts1 5y ago
if Signal can do Mobilecoin without any access to our Contact address book, then I expect a mass adoption by the general populace.

atatatat 5y ago

Matrix (Element and friends) is the future.

GhettoComputers 5y ago

Where is the scam part? I don't need to use their crypto, its just built in, and its not dishonest in any way. There is no monopoly, and suggesting they should run encryption and servers all day with no compensation and free isn't sustainable, in fact that makes me even more suspicious that it is a govenment run system. I prefer that I can at least see it being sustainable, and if its a P2P protocol it could be free, but if they paid the developers well I would feel even better for various reasons.

INTPenis 5y ago
You could flip that argument too and say that the thousands of dollars one must pay to run an Oxen node is a threshold that intelligence agencies and governments can easily afford. While the idealists who just want to support the onion routing with bandwidth for a few bucks a month are shut out. That's why tor is so massive, because anyone can support it. But that's also what makes tor vulnerable to sybil attacks. It's a catch 22. Either way, my warnings bells go off when someone asks for thousands of dollars for crypto coins that have no real advantage like Monero. Another question that comes up with Oxen is what happens if it's adopted. Because afaik each onion routing node is also calculating the blockchain. So the more transactions happen, the heavier these calculations get, right? So each onion routing node will require a lot of resources eventually, if this ever takes off.
- darcys22 5y ago
  Your statement on the intelligence agencies is incorrect. You need oxen to run the nodes not dollars, and obtaining oxen has an exponential cost due to market forces. If you want to run 1 node you can obtain the oxen pretty easily. If you want to obtain enough oxen to control 50% of the network you will need to buy more oxen than is in existence.
  - INTPenis 5y ago
    That's a really good point that I had overlooked. Thanks.
- 5y ago

caeril 5y ago

I generally agree, but in the specific case of Session, the crypto scam is a feature. The crypto scam provides for the thousand or so independent nodes that makes a ProtonMail-style law enforcement order useless. Any centralized service like Threema is vulnerable to a court order to log, at the very least, connection metadata. It's a LOT more expensive for LE to launch a Sybil attack on Loki than to get some bootlicking judge to compel logging and/or silent client update. But yeah, I totally agree that the crypto scam is long-term unsustainable and Session needs to find a way for the users of Session to have to pay for Loki network access to keep it running. To the point above, the biggest weakness of Session, by far, is that its official packages are released and signed in Australia. There is no doubt in my mind that .AU will eventually come down hard and compel signing of compromised binary releases. They HAVE to distribute official release building and signing to multiple developers around the world, and soon.

gaius_baltar 5y ago

It's sad Tox never succeeded in getting widely used, as it solved a lot of problems (almost, multi-device was in a beta branch last time I used it). Fully distributed (while current solutions are centralized or, at best, federated), no single entity to be attacked, no dependency on phone numbers, being blessed by a server, or strange coins.

darcys22 5y ago
Session does all those things. The political view on cryptocurrency that causes you to label it as a bad thing means you blanket category something that adds a lot of features to session. I think tors uptake in general was limited because the FBI was able to still to track people, and here the cryptocurrency element fights against exactly that.

darcys22 5y ago

In sessions case the cryptocurrency is a protective measure thats stops eve from spinning up loads of nodes on their backend and snooping the message packets.