7 ms·

You don’t have to dig in to understand there is a distributed ledger saying you “own” a jpeg

by ryan93 5y ago

taylorfinley 5y ago
This is exactly the sort of shallow understanding I mean to point at. NFTs are so much more than "owning jpegs." This is the same mistake as saying "owning bitcoin is just owning a cell in a spreadsheet." Can I have the title to your car? After all, it's just a piece of paper. NFTs are access tokens to social communities, where owning a particular token grants you access to a community that shares ownership. Collab.Land is a tool communities use for NFT ownership based roles, revoked upon sale. NFTs are a distributed system of title. I'd be shocked if every concert ticket isn't a form of NFT in ten years--you can transfer them verifiably on the secondary market while giving a royalty to the issuer, use them to access a concert, and keep them as a souvenir like a traditional ticket stub. And yes, some people make profile pics, and generative art projects. You don't have to like or participate in those. But dismissing all NFTs as idiotic is not a position that is going to age well.
- toomanydoubts 5y ago
  Why would you put a concert ticket on a distributed ledger if there's only a single party who can honor this ticket? There's a company who issued the ticket, and it's the same one that will either let you in or not at the date and time the concert is supposed to happen. Why would they put it in a distributed ledger instead of a database managed by themselves?
  - pinoli 5y ago
    because once you have a global, indestructible infrastructure that embeds the same principles, companies would find it more efficient to do so, instead of building their own unique and non-compatible version.
    - fortuna86 5y ago
      Why? When is the last digital bank heist you heard of? When has anyone mass produced fake concert tickets? Security behind digital commerce is fine, even good right now. What does blockchain actually improve ?
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    Interoperability out of the box with protocols for escrow/dispute and resolution without having to solely trust the company issuing the nft ticket, esp with PII (I'm thinking hotel/bnb bookings, I know of a DAO[0][1] that has already partnered with a few places in europe and facilitated this). Just have to walk in, sign a message with the address that holds the nft and then you have access to the space for the duration. They're trying to solve all the kinks before trying to scale though. Granted, I really can't be bothered to care about all the stuff going on out there with nft's but i'm not going to let it sour me on those trying to build decentralized alternatives for systems people like to engage in now while cutting out the centralized platform rentiers/censors. [0] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785611286100049941/889830480084627456/Trips1.mp3 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785611286100049941/88... [1] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785611286100049941/889830506189946880/Trips2.mp3 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785611286100049941/88...
    - paddlepop 5y ago
      I still don't understand why this needs to be decentralised? > without having to solely trust the company issuing the nft ticket For the transaction yes, but what about the thing you are buying? Perhaps I am not thinking creatively enough, but I can't think of a use case where there isn't ultimately some trust required other than solely digital assets. Using your hotel example, you will end up at the hotel where they can choose to honor your ticket in the same way as their traditional booking system. There was no need for this to be on a distributed ledger as the asset (a hotel stay) was between you and the hotel. You are not cutting out the middle man of some SaaS provider, you are substituting them.
      - cinquemb 5y ago
        > Perhaps I am not thinking creatively enough Perhaps, but its ok either way, it's not really limiting the DAO or the places leveraging the DAO to pursue this stuff. > Using your hotel example, you will end up at the hotel where they can choose to honor your ticket in the same way as their traditional booking system. There was no need for this to be on a distributed ledger as the asset (a hotel stay) was between you and the hotel. Its not just about honoring the ticket for the duration of any particular booking, but also mitigating the risk between multiple parties and being able to easily integrate such information with as many decentralized protocols are needed for the parties involved without extra dev overhead to connect them. For some places, you need to have a card on file in case of damages (this is where the decentralized escrow/dispute and resolution protocol come in) and rely soley on visa/mastercard and the hotel unilaterally being able to say that you were the cause of an issue that may come up or being able to decided whether or not you are on the hook. Incentivized actors (these need not be people, it could be automated, but since everything has an address, no one can tell the difference) of those other protocols on chain need visibility with the address that held the nft. So yes, its trust the protocols and incentives associated with them around handling dispute and resolution and non custodial locking of collateral in escrow (or allowing another protocol to time lock collateral on ones behalf). And this assumes that the place someone buys an nft stay has the in house capability to do all that without using a particualr nft stay protocol (which alot of places dont esp for random bnb) or ok with giving a large cut to airbnb/booking.com/visa etc if they don't. > You are not cutting out the middle man of some SaaS provider, you are substituting them. Yes, for code that can take a lot less of the cut than existing SaaS providers (if any at all). A protocol != SaaS provider, even though a SaaS provider could manage a protocol[0], or a protocol can just be an set of immutable contracts deployed on chain, or anything in between. [0] https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/standard21/uploads/shinedao/original/1X/81cf84ddfe2bf9434d9881aaf2dff0a766b1c24c.jpeg https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/standard21/uploads/shinedao/o...
- ryan93 5y ago
  A big example is that you have to buy a jpeg to join a shitty forum?
- Buttons840 5y ago
  If I have a NFT concert ticket, how do I get into the concert? What do the people at the gates do to determine that I may enter? Do I print a piece of paper? Do I show them a picture on my phone or something? Can't the previous owners of the NFT show the same picture? Can't anyone show the same picture on their own phone?
  - dmarcos 5y ago
    No infrastructure in venues integrating NFTs but it’s no different than a traditional ticket. Your NFT could have an associated QR code read at the door. In case of conflict there’s only one owner with access to the associated wallet and will be able to proof ownership via app / website…
    - Buttons840 5y ago
      Someone could make an app that only shows a QR code for NFTs you own. Someone else could make an app that shows QR codes for NFTs they don't own. I suppose your right that it usually wouldn't matter, but in case of conflict you better be prepared to sign something with your private key. If NFTs make most of society familiar with public and private keys, message signing, etc, it will be a win.
      - dmarcos 5y ago
        A QR code is a number too and not a very large one. Small enough I think to fit on-chain in the tokenURI field of an ERC721 contract. Not eve need of ipfs or arweave to store an image. Yep, if someone else tries to access with your ticket you can always sign with your wallet somewhere to resolve the conflict. We will probably see crypto wallets integrated in our phones and associated OSs pretty soon to make everything smooth.
  - tnzm 5y ago
    Two QR codes: one of the ticket's public key, and one of your public key. Their infrastructure verifies that you're the current owner and you're in. Or just have your phone broadcast the public keys via radio to a turnstile.
- umanwizard 5y ago
  > you can transfer them verifiably on the secondary market while giving a royalty to the issuer, use them to access a concert, and keep them as a souvenir like a traditional ticket stub. Which of these can you not do on TicketMaster today?
  - dmarcos 5y ago
    Ticketmaster is the middleman. NFTs skip all of that and give much more flexibility to the issuer. You can code anything you want in the smart contract. Variable royalties depending on when is sold, increasing royalties on each transaction… Any incentive structure you can imagine is possible and nobody is gatekeeping.

You don’t have to dig in to understand there is a distributed ledger saying you “own” a jpeg

by ryan93 5y ago

You don’t have to dig in to understand there is a distributed ledger saying you “own” a jpeg

This is exactly the sort of shallow understanding I mean to point at. NFTs are so much more than "owning jpegs." This is the same mistake as saying "owning bitcoin is just owning a cell in a spreadsheet." Can I have the title to your car? After all, it's just a piece of paper. NFTs are access tokens to social communities, where owning a particular token grants you access to a community that shares ownership. Collab.Land is a tool communities use for NFT ownership based roles, revoked upon sale. NFTs are a distributed system of title. I'd be shocked if every concert ticket isn't a form of NFT in ten years--you can transfer them verifiably on the secondary market while giving a royalty to the issuer, use them to access a concert, and keep them as a souvenir like a traditional ticket stub. And yes, some people make profile pics, and generative art projects. You don't have to like or participate in those. But dismissing all NFTs as idiotic is not a position that is going to age well.

toomanydoubts 5y ago
Why would you put a concert ticket on a distributed ledger if there's only a single party who can honor this ticket? There's a company who issued the ticket, and it's the same one that will either let you in or not at the date and time the concert is supposed to happen. Why would they put it in a distributed ledger instead of a database managed by themselves?
- pinoli 5y ago
  because once you have a global, indestructible infrastructure that embeds the same principles, companies would find it more efficient to do so, instead of building their own unique and non-compatible version.
  - fortuna86 5y ago
    Why? When is the last digital bank heist you heard of? When has anyone mass produced fake concert tickets? Security behind digital commerce is fine, even good right now. What does blockchain actually improve ?
- cinquemb 5y ago
  Interoperability out of the box with protocols for escrow/dispute and resolution without having to solely trust the company issuing the nft ticket, esp with PII (I'm thinking hotel/bnb bookings, I know of a DAO[0][1] that has already partnered with a few places in europe and facilitated this). Just have to walk in, sign a message with the address that holds the nft and then you have access to the space for the duration. They're trying to solve all the kinks before trying to scale though. Granted, I really can't be bothered to care about all the stuff going on out there with nft's but i'm not going to let it sour me on those trying to build decentralized alternatives for systems people like to engage in now while cutting out the centralized platform rentiers/censors. [0] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785611286100049941/889830480084627456/Trips1.mp3 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785611286100049941/88... [1] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785611286100049941/889830506189946880/Trips2.mp3 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/785611286100049941/88...
  - paddlepop 5y ago
    I still don't understand why this needs to be decentralised? > without having to solely trust the company issuing the nft ticket For the transaction yes, but what about the thing you are buying? Perhaps I am not thinking creatively enough, but I can't think of a use case where there isn't ultimately some trust required other than solely digital assets. Using your hotel example, you will end up at the hotel where they can choose to honor your ticket in the same way as their traditional booking system. There was no need for this to be on a distributed ledger as the asset (a hotel stay) was between you and the hotel. You are not cutting out the middle man of some SaaS provider, you are substituting them.
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      > Perhaps I am not thinking creatively enough Perhaps, but its ok either way, it's not really limiting the DAO or the places leveraging the DAO to pursue this stuff. > Using your hotel example, you will end up at the hotel where they can choose to honor your ticket in the same way as their traditional booking system. There was no need for this to be on a distributed ledger as the asset (a hotel stay) was between you and the hotel. Its not just about honoring the ticket for the duration of any particular booking, but also mitigating the risk between multiple parties and being able to easily integrate such information with as many decentralized protocols are needed for the parties involved without extra dev overhead to connect them. For some places, you need to have a card on file in case of damages (this is where the decentralized escrow/dispute and resolution protocol come in) and rely soley on visa/mastercard and the hotel unilaterally being able to say that you were the cause of an issue that may come up or being able to decided whether or not you are on the hook. Incentivized actors (these need not be people, it could be automated, but since everything has an address, no one can tell the difference) of those other protocols on chain need visibility with the address that held the nft. So yes, its trust the protocols and incentives associated with them around handling dispute and resolution and non custodial locking of collateral in escrow (or allowing another protocol to time lock collateral on ones behalf). And this assumes that the place someone buys an nft stay has the in house capability to do all that without using a particualr nft stay protocol (which alot of places dont esp for random bnb) or ok with giving a large cut to airbnb/booking.com/visa etc if they don't. > You are not cutting out the middle man of some SaaS provider, you are substituting them. Yes, for code that can take a lot less of the cut than existing SaaS providers (if any at all). A protocol != SaaS provider, even though a SaaS provider could manage a protocol[0], or a protocol can just be an set of immutable contracts deployed on chain, or anything in between. [0] https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/standard21/uploads/shinedao/original/1X/81cf84ddfe2bf9434d9881aaf2dff0a766b1c24c.jpeg https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/standard21/uploads/shinedao/o...
ryan93 5y ago
A big example is that you have to buy a jpeg to join a shitty forum?
Buttons840 5y ago
If I have a NFT concert ticket, how do I get into the concert? What do the people at the gates do to determine that I may enter? Do I print a piece of paper? Do I show them a picture on my phone or something? Can't the previous owners of the NFT show the same picture? Can't anyone show the same picture on their own phone?
- dmarcos 5y ago
  No infrastructure in venues integrating NFTs but it’s no different than a traditional ticket. Your NFT could have an associated QR code read at the door. In case of conflict there’s only one owner with access to the associated wallet and will be able to proof ownership via app / website…
  - Buttons840 5y ago
    Someone could make an app that only shows a QR code for NFTs you own. Someone else could make an app that shows QR codes for NFTs they don't own. I suppose your right that it usually wouldn't matter, but in case of conflict you better be prepared to sign something with your private key. If NFTs make most of society familiar with public and private keys, message signing, etc, it will be a win.
    - dmarcos 5y ago
      A QR code is a number too and not a very large one. Small enough I think to fit on-chain in the tokenURI field of an ERC721 contract. Not eve need of ipfs or arweave to store an image. Yep, if someone else tries to access with your ticket you can always sign with your wallet somewhere to resolve the conflict. We will probably see crypto wallets integrated in our phones and associated OSs pretty soon to make everything smooth.
- tnzm 5y ago
  Two QR codes: one of the ticket's public key, and one of your public key. Their infrastructure verifies that you're the current owner and you're in. Or just have your phone broadcast the public keys via radio to a turnstile.
umanwizard 5y ago
> you can transfer them verifiably on the secondary market while giving a royalty to the issuer, use them to access a concert, and keep them as a souvenir like a traditional ticket stub. Which of these can you not do on TicketMaster today?
- dmarcos 5y ago
  Ticketmaster is the middleman. NFTs skip all of that and give much more flexibility to the issuer. You can code anything you want in the smart contract. Variable royalties depending on when is sold, increasing royalties on each transaction… Any incentive structure you can imagine is possible and nobody is gatekeeping.