6 ms·

Cops have a bad reputation in most places, but this might be media bias or media coverage. I can't say in the countries I've lived in (most countries in the UK,

Cops have a bad reputation in most places, but this might be media bias or media coverage. I can't say in the countries I've lived in (most countries in the UK, France, Germany and now Australia) are anything like what you see covered in the US.

jandrewrogers 5y ago
It depends on what kind of law enforcement you are dealing with. City police have a poor reputation but county sheriffs often have a more positive reputation in many areas. Federal law enforcement is a whole different can of worms. The incentive structures and relationships to the population are different, and that leads to different behaviors. My experience in several jurisdictions matches the heuristic. Encounters with city police were always default adversarial, even when I had done nothing wrong; interactions with sheriffs were uniformly pleasant and reasonable, not adversarial, even in a couple cases where I was inadvertently breaking the law.
jollybean 5y ago
"are anything like what you see covered in the US." Judging US police from media coverage is really not useful. Having lived experience of living in the US I think does illustrate some things, and then, more importantly, having access to 'good data' (which is hard, but nevertheless possible) is even better. I believe the police in the US overall take a more aggressive tone and posture. I also believe US citizens are far more likely to act in defiance. The things I've seen American individuals do ... I have never in my life seen in Canada, UK, France, Germany and couldn't even imagine it happening. The scenes of a man, with two police officers arresting him - four hands on him, putting cuffs on him - and he goes for his gun (!!). Or the number of times people race away from police after being pulled over and resulting high-speed chase. It's absurd. It's an issue I think people often don't tend to want to think about, but if we use car chases as an example - I think this is worthy because these are generally not situations in which arbitrary police aggression is going to be a 'root cause'. You can see total deaths in the US from car chases is ballpark 2/million/year, where as in he UK it's about 0.2/million/year. [1][2] High speed chases are a cultural phenom [3] (FYI about 1/2 of the people who die in high speed pursuits are innocent bystanders.) Obviously, this will be affected by police police in terms of pursuit policy (i.e. in many forces they won't pursue if it's too dangerous) - but there's no doubt that Americans have a much greater propensity to run from police, in cars, which is an extremely dangerous thing to do for those involved, but also for everyone else. It's nary impossible to get the data, but I believe that this applies to all other forms of confrontation as well. I think that they are related, i.e. civilians more aggressive posture - combined with the fact so many people have weapons - makes the police more 'on edge' and combined with their more systematically aggressive posture, you have considerably greater chances of 'small things' escalating into 'big things' - as we have in this article. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/319294/deaths-during-or-following-police-contact-police-pursuit-in-england-and-wales/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/319294/deaths-during-or-... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/727008/vehicle-pursuit-related-deaths-by-state/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/727008/vehicle-pursuit-r... [3] https://www.lamag.com/longform/how-high-speed-car-chases-became-a-citywide-pastime-in-los-angeles/ https://www.lamag.com/longform/how-high-speed-car-chases-bec...
ashtonkem 5y ago
Or, maybe cops behave differently in the US other than those countries. Even just comparing the UK and America provides an illustrative example; wouldn’t you expect differences in policing between a country where every cop is armed, and one where very few are? I can say as an American there is a very, very strong pro-cop bias in American media. This is slowly changing, but it’s not a completed process yet. Take a look at what tortuous lengths most newspapers will go to to avoid describing officer misconduct in the active voice; “officer involved shooting” has become a dark joke in this country for a reason.
- LilBytes 5y ago
  All or most cops have guns in Australia for what it's worth. That they're not used as often is likely due to training and the likelihood that the person you're arresting won't have one though.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    Yes, it’s more subtle and multi-faceted than the example I picked. I just figured that was an easy one to point at as a difference. I personally think that police mentality matters a lot more than anything else. German police departments for example still have a lot of shame over their extensive involvement in the Holocaust, which affects how they see themselves and how they behave today. Doesn’t mean they’re perfect, but it’s a huge factor that changes police behavior from one country to the next.
OneTimePetes 5y ago
In the US you have the constant threat of gun-violence, which basically processes all police into a army-band-of-brothers troop in what feels to some of them like a low level civil war. You can not remain good police in such a environment and stay alive till retirement unless you are outside of the urban areas.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  This is what cops want you to believe, yes. The statistics do not back this up. Roughly as many cops are dying per year from 9/11 related illnesses as gunfire. In 2020 5x as many cops died from Covid than died from gunfire the year before. The fact that cops demand the right to use lethal force without consequence and the ability to not get vaccinated from something that’s killed 5x as many cops as guns have kind of gives the whole game away. It’s not about public safety or the cops safety; it’s just about power. In reality the group that should be really terrified of everyone is pregnant women, who are much more likely to be shot to death than a cop is. Given the prevalence of domestic violence among cops (estimated as high as 40%), being a pregnant woman married to a cop is probably more dangerous than being a cop.

jandrewrogers 5y ago

It depends on what kind of law enforcement you are dealing with. City police have a poor reputation but county sheriffs often have a more positive reputation in many areas. Federal law enforcement is a whole different can of worms. The incentive structures and relationships to the population are different, and that leads to different behaviors. My experience in several jurisdictions matches the heuristic. Encounters with city police were always default adversarial, even when I had done nothing wrong; interactions with sheriffs were uniformly pleasant and reasonable, not adversarial, even in a couple cases where I was inadvertently breaking the law.

jollybean 5y ago

"are anything like what you see covered in the US." Judging US police from media coverage is really not useful. Having lived experience of living in the US I think does illustrate some things, and then, more importantly, having access to 'good data' (which is hard, but nevertheless possible) is even better. I believe the police in the US overall take a more aggressive tone and posture. I also believe US citizens are far more likely to act in defiance. The things I've seen American individuals do ... I have never in my life seen in Canada, UK, France, Germany and couldn't even imagine it happening. The scenes of a man, with two police officers arresting him - four hands on him, putting cuffs on him - and he goes for his gun (!!). Or the number of times people race away from police after being pulled over and resulting high-speed chase. It's absurd. It's an issue I think people often don't tend to want to think about, but if we use car chases as an example - I think this is worthy because these are generally not situations in which arbitrary police aggression is going to be a 'root cause'. You can see total deaths in the US from car chases is ballpark 2/million/year, where as in he UK it's about 0.2/million/year. [1][2] High speed chases are a cultural phenom [3] (FYI about 1/2 of the people who die in high speed pursuits are innocent bystanders.) Obviously, this will be affected by police police in terms of pursuit policy (i.e. in many forces they won't pursue if it's too dangerous) - but there's no doubt that Americans have a much greater propensity to run from police, in cars, which is an extremely dangerous thing to do for those involved, but also for everyone else. It's nary impossible to get the data, but I believe that this applies to all other forms of confrontation as well. I think that they are related, i.e. civilians more aggressive posture - combined with the fact so many people have weapons - makes the police more 'on edge' and combined with their more systematically aggressive posture, you have considerably greater chances of 'small things' escalating into 'big things' - as we have in this article. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/319294/deaths-during-or-following-police-contact-police-pursuit-in-england-and-wales/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/319294/deaths-during-or-... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/727008/vehicle-pursuit-related-deaths-by-state/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/727008/vehicle-pursuit-r... [3] https://www.lamag.com/longform/how-high-speed-car-chases-became-a-citywide-pastime-in-los-angeles/ https://www.lamag.com/longform/how-high-speed-car-chases-bec...

ashtonkem 5y ago

Or, maybe cops behave differently in the US other than those countries. Even just comparing the UK and America provides an illustrative example; wouldn’t you expect differences in policing between a country where every cop is armed, and one where very few are? I can say as an American there is a very, very strong pro-cop bias in American media. This is slowly changing, but it’s not a completed process yet. Take a look at what tortuous lengths most newspapers will go to to avoid describing officer misconduct in the active voice; “officer involved shooting” has become a dark joke in this country for a reason.

LilBytes 5y ago
All or most cops have guns in Australia for what it's worth. That they're not used as often is likely due to training and the likelihood that the person you're arresting won't have one though.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Yes, it’s more subtle and multi-faceted than the example I picked. I just figured that was an easy one to point at as a difference. I personally think that police mentality matters a lot more than anything else. German police departments for example still have a lot of shame over their extensive involvement in the Holocaust, which affects how they see themselves and how they behave today. Doesn’t mean they’re perfect, but it’s a huge factor that changes police behavior from one country to the next.

OneTimePetes 5y ago

In the US you have the constant threat of gun-violence, which basically processes all police into a army-band-of-brothers troop in what feels to some of them like a low level civil war. You can not remain good police in such a environment and stay alive till retirement unless you are outside of the urban areas.

ashtonkem 5y ago
This is what cops want you to believe, yes. The statistics do not back this up. Roughly as many cops are dying per year from 9/11 related illnesses as gunfire. In 2020 5x as many cops died from Covid than died from gunfire the year before. The fact that cops demand the right to use lethal force without consequence and the ability to not get vaccinated from something that’s killed 5x as many cops as guns have kind of gives the whole game away. It’s not about public safety or the cops safety; it’s just about power. In reality the group that should be really terrified of everyone is pregnant women, who are much more likely to be shot to death than a cop is. Given the prevalence of domestic violence among cops (estimated as high as 40%), being a pregnant woman married to a cop is probably more dangerous than being a cop.