6 ms·

Having a position of always assuming good intentions can be gamed by people with bad intentions.

tomjen3 5y ago
It also is an issue for all others. FX I don’t know if it is appropriate to say “you guys” to a mixed crowd anymore, but if I hadn’t seen that some people get upset about that I wouldn’t think twice about it and just emulated American movies. Buffy isn’t exactly sexist and she says it often and to a mixed crowd.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  At least in English you have the neutral word "they". In french you only have the plural of "he" or "she". This means that when you point to a mixed crowd, you must choose which of the plurals you use. The grammatical rule is that one male flips the plural gender to male. If you do not know the sexes, the plural is male. As a French, the construction comes naturally because we've been taught that at school since kindergarten. This always sounded a bit weird, though. I do not approve some "grammatical inclusivity" horrors that are being invented from time to time, but some innovative-but-not-distruptive changes would be welcome.
  - Bayart 5y ago
    >As a French, the construction comes naturally because we've been taught that at school since kindergarten. This always sounded a bit weird, though. If you follow the grammatical history of French, the neutral gender just got folded into masculine. >but some innovative-but-not-distruptive changes would be welcome You can't really produce grammar by decree, at best you can systematize what already exists. The only "sane" way to have explicit neutral in French would be to go back in time, reimplement declensions and possibly mangle phonology in the process. That won't happen. All forms of "inclusive writing" are from the outset destined and meant to be an elitist signal rather than an actual linguistic feature. They won't survive and they'll been seen in the future as a strange, idiosyncratic trend of the age. A bit like Renaissance orthography, where countless letters were added without meaning to simply look fancier.
    - eloisant 5y ago
      > If you follow the grammatical history of French, the neutral gender just got folded into masculine. This is not just grammatical history, this is the current grammar rules. However some people are trying to force a change of the rule by making up new words and rules, such as "iels" instead of "ils/elles".
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      Like I said, I do not approve of the horrible ideas we have, with dots everywhere - this transforms words that are fine as they are. I am for simplification, though (nothing to do with the current topic, just a thought). What I am missing are the concepts young people are bringing in more and more, where they have words that become unisex (potes for instance). I listen to my children and (without any scientific analysis), it sounds to me that there is less of a boy/girl cut that there was in my times (this may be regional - this is for west of Paris). And I agree with you that only naturally appearing changes will stay, not the ones forced on us. A typical example are the surrealist ideas of the 90's to have French equivalents for everything computer. Some stayed, the majority is now part of comedies.
  - jamil7 5y ago
    German is also developing (unofficial) gender-neutral nouns using an asterisk ending but I think it’s also an open discussion about how best to handle it. It’s mostly often seen when referring to a person’s role, position or job in a way that includes all genders and non-binary people. I speak the language but it’s not my mother tongue so native German speakers might explain it better.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      As in things like ~fireman~ -> fire*? How do you pronounce it?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - jamil7 5y ago
        Basically you take the word stem, add the asterisk and then append the female ending, you pronounce it by putting a stop where the * is and then saying the feminine ending (at least that’s how I’ve seen it done). This probably wouldn’t work in French since they hate putting stops anywhere :) Some info and alternatives here https://www.goethe.de/ins/th/en/m/spr/mag/21967217.html https://www.goethe.de/ins/th/en/m/spr/mag/21967217.html
    - chaoskanzlerin 5y ago
      There's two types of gender-neutral nouns in German being used: - apprehending markers like -*in, -_in, -In [1] - forming a gerund from a verb describing the activity e.g. the word "Bäcker" - engl. "baker" - could be written as "Bäcker*in" or "Backende" (from "backen", the verb), depending on the speaker. Note that the gerund form eliminates conveying info about gender, unlike an "universal" marker like *in. [1] for plural forms, those are expanded to -*innen, -_innen and -Innen
  - Zababa 5y ago
    The thing is, since we don't have a separate neutral in French, masculine is also used for neutral. Which means it isn't that weird when we use masculine for groups with women, as we also use genders for everyday objects. A desk is masculine for some reason, and a table feminine.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      Well, to me saying "ils sont là!" when there is a crowd of 200 girls and one boy is still weird :) I would probably say "elles sont là!" despite it not being grammatical. As for the genders of nouns, my native English French speaking friends are usually in pain.
      - Zababa 5y ago
        I feel the same, and I think it's fair to switch to feminine in these cases. My point was just that it sounds a bit less weird than saying "elles sont là" when there is 200 girls and a boy.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  If you're in a mixed crowd that cares how you say "you guys" you should probably rethink whether you want to associate with these people.
Rd6n6 5y ago
Do you really not see that the opposite is also true? Having a position where good intentions are not assumed can be gamed far more easily by people with bad intentions
- mannykannot 5y ago
  Do you really not see that either extreme is more exploitable and less resilient than a more pragmatic middle ground? Personally, my guess is that the optimum is usually towards assuming the best, but that it shifts depending on the level of antagonism present.

It also is an issue for all others. FX I don’t know if it is appropriate to say “you guys” to a mixed crowd anymore, but if I hadn’t seen that some people get upset about that I wouldn’t think twice about it and just emulated American movies. Buffy isn’t exactly sexist and she says it often and to a mixed crowd.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
At least in English you have the neutral word "they". In french you only have the plural of "he" or "she". This means that when you point to a mixed crowd, you must choose which of the plurals you use. The grammatical rule is that one male flips the plural gender to male. If you do not know the sexes, the plural is male. As a French, the construction comes naturally because we've been taught that at school since kindergarten. This always sounded a bit weird, though. I do not approve some "grammatical inclusivity" horrors that are being invented from time to time, but some innovative-but-not-distruptive changes would be welcome.
- Bayart 5y ago
  >As a French, the construction comes naturally because we've been taught that at school since kindergarten. This always sounded a bit weird, though. If you follow the grammatical history of French, the neutral gender just got folded into masculine. >but some innovative-but-not-distruptive changes would be welcome You can't really produce grammar by decree, at best you can systematize what already exists. The only "sane" way to have explicit neutral in French would be to go back in time, reimplement declensions and possibly mangle phonology in the process. That won't happen. All forms of "inclusive writing" are from the outset destined and meant to be an elitist signal rather than an actual linguistic feature. They won't survive and they'll been seen in the future as a strange, idiosyncratic trend of the age. A bit like Renaissance orthography, where countless letters were added without meaning to simply look fancier.
  - eloisant 5y ago
    > If you follow the grammatical history of French, the neutral gender just got folded into masculine. This is not just grammatical history, this is the current grammar rules. However some people are trying to force a change of the rule by making up new words and rules, such as "iels" instead of "ils/elles".
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    Like I said, I do not approve of the horrible ideas we have, with dots everywhere - this transforms words that are fine as they are. I am for simplification, though (nothing to do with the current topic, just a thought). What I am missing are the concepts young people are bringing in more and more, where they have words that become unisex (potes for instance). I listen to my children and (without any scientific analysis), it sounds to me that there is less of a boy/girl cut that there was in my times (this may be regional - this is for west of Paris). And I agree with you that only naturally appearing changes will stay, not the ones forced on us. A typical example are the surrealist ideas of the 90's to have French equivalents for everything computer. Some stayed, the majority is now part of comedies.
- jamil7 5y ago
  German is also developing (unofficial) gender-neutral nouns using an asterisk ending but I think it’s also an open discussion about how best to handle it. It’s mostly often seen when referring to a person’s role, position or job in a way that includes all genders and non-binary people. I speak the language but it’s not my mother tongue so native German speakers might explain it better.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    As in things like ~fireman~ -> fire*? How do you pronounce it?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - jamil7 5y ago
      Basically you take the word stem, add the asterisk and then append the female ending, you pronounce it by putting a stop where the * is and then saying the feminine ending (at least that’s how I’ve seen it done). This probably wouldn’t work in French since they hate putting stops anywhere :) Some info and alternatives here https://www.goethe.de/ins/th/en/m/spr/mag/21967217.html https://www.goethe.de/ins/th/en/m/spr/mag/21967217.html
  - chaoskanzlerin 5y ago
    There's two types of gender-neutral nouns in German being used: - apprehending markers like -*in, -_in, -In [1] - forming a gerund from a verb describing the activity e.g. the word "Bäcker" - engl. "baker" - could be written as "Bäcker*in" or "Backende" (from "backen", the verb), depending on the speaker. Note that the gerund form eliminates conveying info about gender, unlike an "universal" marker like *in. [1] for plural forms, those are expanded to -*innen, -_innen and -Innen
- Zababa 5y ago
  The thing is, since we don't have a separate neutral in French, masculine is also used for neutral. Which means it isn't that weird when we use masculine for groups with women, as we also use genders for everyday objects. A desk is masculine for some reason, and a table feminine.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    Well, to me saying "ils sont là!" when there is a crowd of 200 girls and one boy is still weird :) I would probably say "elles sont là!" despite it not being grammatical. As for the genders of nouns, my native English French speaking friends are usually in pain.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      I feel the same, and I think it's fair to switch to feminine in these cases. My point was just that it sounds a bit less weird than saying "elles sont là" when there is 200 girls and a boy.
fallingknife 5y ago
If you're in a mixed crowd that cares how you say "you guys" you should probably rethink whether you want to associate with these people.

Rd6n6 5y ago

Do you really not see that the opposite is also true? Having a position where good intentions are not assumed can be gamed far more easily by people with bad intentions

mannykannot 5y ago
Do you really not see that either extreme is more exploitable and less resilient than a more pragmatic middle ground? Personally, my guess is that the optimum is usually towards assuming the best, but that it shifts depending on the level of antagonism present.