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> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1442706542839701510 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1442706542839701510 And Tesla is rolling out FSD beta to cars bas

> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1442706542839701510 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1442706542839701510 And Tesla is rolling out FSD beta to cars based on drivers' safety score.

EastOfTruth 5y ago
Tesla is getting some real competition
- brianwawok 5y ago
  You can buy the Waymo software as a consumer, and put it in your own car right now?
  - EastOfTruth 5y ago
    eventually, you won't have to buy a car... there will be self-driving cars everywhere waiting for you to hop on.
  - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
    I'll sell you a self-driving car. Please be advised that it will drive into walls, fail to brake for stationary obstacles, drive straight off the road, and is in fact a Saturn with a brick on the gas pedal. I didn't say it was a good self-driving car. Tesla doesn't have competition because they aren't in the game at all. They do not make self-driving cars and probably never will.
  - EastOfTruth 5y ago
    no but I can't do that with Tesla software either .... I can with comma.ai though....
  - marmshallow 5y ago
    Tesla's business model (and stock valuation) is based on launching a robotaxi service. I'd say that this news introduces more competition for the robotaxi aspect, not the selling you a car aspect.
cheeze 5y ago
What does this mean? Hasn't Tesla been selling FSD beta for like 5 years now? I don't really trust anything Elon says anymore. I feel like he's not followed through on commitments about FSD far too many times. I'd personally never buy a TSLA until they get things much more in order (build quality/fit and finish, and actually deliver FSD)
- jsight 5y ago
  This version is much more advanced than their previous versions, but I generally agree with you. Its nowhere close to being able to get you through most drives without assistance.
- dcow 5y ago
  For the vast majority of people Tesla's vehicles are a practical, real, available, easy, modern, electric, car experience that are a near drop in replacement for ICE vehicles because you can road trip with them. There are zero competing offerings available today that have the range of a Tesla and an extensive associated integrated hi-amperage charging network. The only gripe is that FSD hasn't been delivered on the projected timelines (and may never be). I suspect you wouldn't buy a Tesla based on moonshot FSD claims anyway, so what's holding you back? The Elon hate train?
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    The reason why "the vast majority of people" are not considering purchasing an electric vehicle have to do with uncertainty about the charging experience and long term maintenance and repair costs. It has nothing to do with FSD. Once the costs of ownership are well understood, that uncertainly will be resolved and the cars can be priced correctly. That will take time -- if I buy a 10 year old corolla with 100K miles I will know (after the usual mechanic inspection) what my expected maintenance costs will be, on average, for the next 5 years of ownership. You can't really say that for an out-of-warantee Tesla because there isn't a large group of independent mechanics that can service it and because there is a lot of uncertainty about the battery life and service costs. Over time, if Teslas remain popular, and if the company doesn't DRM them out of existence, such networks will develop and we will accumulate actuarial data on repair costs that will reduce risk. Until then, this market will remain primarily one of price insensitive or risk-insensitive customers -- e.g. wealthier people and possibly government or other large corporate fleet sales. That is exactly what you would expect for new technologies. But for most people, a car is a major proportion of their networth, one they need to get to work, and so they are going to be risk averse (which is exactly what they should be). My next car will most likely be a 10 year old Lexus or Acura product. Even if it's a different manufacturer it will be an ICE vehicle and not an electric vehicle. Purchasing an out of warranty Tesla isn't remotely close to a viable option as it's not possible for me to price it. But used car prices drive new car prices because most purchasers are not planning on driving the car until it has zero value, they are counting on the used car market to pay for half of their car purchasing costs. Really for new technologies, Tesla should focus on leasing their cars if they want to reach out beyond the price insensitive market.
m463 5y ago
The "safety score" is a really really creepy thing. Not only that they are using it for this, but that they're collecting this data in the first place.
- brianwawok 5y ago
  Uh, they only collect if you literally approve it on a full page popup that explains what the safety score is and how data is shared. Just to clarify your position, you want to hand over beta car driving software to people that do not first pass a test for safe driving?
  - basisword 5y ago
    Nobody can drive a car without passing a test demonstrating they can drive safely. If passing the government approved driving test doesn’t make someone good enough to use your software it probably shouldn’t be allowed on the road.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    > Uh, they only collect if you literally approve it on a full page popup that explains what the safety score is and how data is shared. I don't think that's accurate. Tesla collects a whole host of telemetry on all of their drivers. "Shadow Autopilot", etc., etc. They show zero hesitation in releasing that telemetry to the media, or elsewhere, if there's the slightest hint it will put you under scrutiny rather than them. Even misleadingly so - witness a fatal accident where Tesla said "the driver was not paying attention - the vehicle had warned him about taking his hands off the steering wheel", neglecting the ever so slight detail that it had warned him, once, and that warning occurred a quarter hour before the crash. Tesla collect all this data constantly, not just for entry into the FSD beta program.
esturk 5y ago
Marketplace actually had a segment this morning on this and why it's misleading. https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace-tech/teslas-full-self-driving-mode-is-actually-not-fully-self-driving https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace-tech/teslas-fu...
adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
Have you watched the footage of the current "beta"? It's a scam. It runs into stationary objects. It drives into oncoming traffic. It runs red lights, makes illegal turns, drives straight toward other cars, and can't stay on the road. And that's footage recorded and edited by Tesla's biggest fans. "Full Self Driving" does not exist. Every indication is that it never will. I still can't believe no one's gone to prison over this. Tesla's "self driving" features are probably the biggest fraud in history with a body count to match.
- dzader 5y ago
  lol
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  People are terrible at driving. Releasing a half baked product to get data needed to improve it makes complete sense and deserves to be encouraged, even if people die. Because it the end it's likely that many lives will be saved.
  - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
    You don't get to smash a 4,000 pound explosive into a preschool because you want to gather data.
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      If that data saves more lives it seems like a positive to me.
      - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
        If you ever find yourself in a position of power, please write these thoughts down. The prosecutor will find them helpful. We aren't dealing with hypothetical scenarios here. We are dealing with a real company that is really killing people in cold blood. People do not have the right to kill others because they guesstimate it's worth it. On planet Earth, not planet PH101, that's called murder. And that's being charitable. I don't believe for a second that Tesla's victims are sacrifices for the greater good. Tesla's technology is a dead end and the motivation is pumping the stock price.
gibolt 5y ago
The difference is scalability. Tesla can manufacture full equipped vehicles faster and for much cheaper. There are also already 1.5mil vehicles that could be turned on. They do not rely on HD maps. Even if they arrive 1-2 years later than Waymo/Cruise, they can quickly dominate the driverless market.
- serioussecurity 5y ago
  Tesla is 5 years behind and has no plans to begin work on a number of the key challenges they're facing.
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  > Even if they arrive 1-2 years later than Waymo/Cruise It's tough to anchor Tesla's arrival based on the rest of the industry's progress. Cruise and Waymo are heavily dependent on Lidar; Tesla is solving a fairly different technological problem.
- ra7 5y ago
  > Tesla can manufacture full equipped vehicles faster and for much cheaper. There are also already 1.5mil vehicles that could be turned on. This sounds like premature optimization. The real unsolved problem here is autonomous technology (software and hardware), not manufacturing equipped vehicles. No point having millions of vehicles if your self driving technology doesn't actually work. > They do not rely on HD maps. Precisely why FSD doesn't work and is still level 2. The AV players have shown fully autonomous driving needs HD maps and (inconspicuously) the only one not to graduate out of level 2 self driving is the one that's not using HD maps — Tesla. Creating/maintaining HD maps isn't nearly as hard as you think it is, but the benefits are incredible for safe driving.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1442706542839701510 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1442706542839701510 And Tesla is rolling out FSD beta to cars based on drivers' safety score.

EastOfTruth 5y ago

Tesla is getting some real competition

brianwawok 5y ago
You can buy the Waymo software as a consumer, and put it in your own car right now?
- EastOfTruth 5y ago
  eventually, you won't have to buy a car... there will be self-driving cars everywhere waiting for you to hop on.
- adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
  I'll sell you a self-driving car. Please be advised that it will drive into walls, fail to brake for stationary obstacles, drive straight off the road, and is in fact a Saturn with a brick on the gas pedal. I didn't say it was a good self-driving car. Tesla doesn't have competition because they aren't in the game at all. They do not make self-driving cars and probably never will.
- EastOfTruth 5y ago
  no but I can't do that with Tesla software either .... I can with comma.ai though....
- marmshallow 5y ago
  Tesla's business model (and stock valuation) is based on launching a robotaxi service. I'd say that this news introduces more competition for the robotaxi aspect, not the selling you a car aspect.

cheeze 5y ago

What does this mean? Hasn't Tesla been selling FSD beta for like 5 years now? I don't really trust anything Elon says anymore. I feel like he's not followed through on commitments about FSD far too many times. I'd personally never buy a TSLA until they get things much more in order (build quality/fit and finish, and actually deliver FSD)

jsight 5y ago
This version is much more advanced than their previous versions, but I generally agree with you. Its nowhere close to being able to get you through most drives without assistance.
dcow 5y ago
For the vast majority of people Tesla's vehicles are a practical, real, available, easy, modern, electric, car experience that are a near drop in replacement for ICE vehicles because you can road trip with them. There are zero competing offerings available today that have the range of a Tesla and an extensive associated integrated hi-amperage charging network. The only gripe is that FSD hasn't been delivered on the projected timelines (and may never be). I suspect you wouldn't buy a Tesla based on moonshot FSD claims anyway, so what's holding you back? The Elon hate train?
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  The reason why "the vast majority of people" are not considering purchasing an electric vehicle have to do with uncertainty about the charging experience and long term maintenance and repair costs. It has nothing to do with FSD. Once the costs of ownership are well understood, that uncertainly will be resolved and the cars can be priced correctly. That will take time -- if I buy a 10 year old corolla with 100K miles I will know (after the usual mechanic inspection) what my expected maintenance costs will be, on average, for the next 5 years of ownership. You can't really say that for an out-of-warantee Tesla because there isn't a large group of independent mechanics that can service it and because there is a lot of uncertainty about the battery life and service costs. Over time, if Teslas remain popular, and if the company doesn't DRM them out of existence, such networks will develop and we will accumulate actuarial data on repair costs that will reduce risk. Until then, this market will remain primarily one of price insensitive or risk-insensitive customers -- e.g. wealthier people and possibly government or other large corporate fleet sales. That is exactly what you would expect for new technologies. But for most people, a car is a major proportion of their networth, one they need to get to work, and so they are going to be risk averse (which is exactly what they should be). My next car will most likely be a 10 year old Lexus or Acura product. Even if it's a different manufacturer it will be an ICE vehicle and not an electric vehicle. Purchasing an out of warranty Tesla isn't remotely close to a viable option as it's not possible for me to price it. But used car prices drive new car prices because most purchasers are not planning on driving the car until it has zero value, they are counting on the used car market to pay for half of their car purchasing costs. Really for new technologies, Tesla should focus on leasing their cars if they want to reach out beyond the price insensitive market.

m463 5y ago

The "safety score" is a really really creepy thing. Not only that they are using it for this, but that they're collecting this data in the first place.

brianwawok 5y ago
Uh, they only collect if you literally approve it on a full page popup that explains what the safety score is and how data is shared. Just to clarify your position, you want to hand over beta car driving software to people that do not first pass a test for safe driving?
- basisword 5y ago
  Nobody can drive a car without passing a test demonstrating they can drive safely. If passing the government approved driving test doesn’t make someone good enough to use your software it probably shouldn’t be allowed on the road.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  > Uh, they only collect if you literally approve it on a full page popup that explains what the safety score is and how data is shared. I don't think that's accurate. Tesla collects a whole host of telemetry on all of their drivers. "Shadow Autopilot", etc., etc. They show zero hesitation in releasing that telemetry to the media, or elsewhere, if there's the slightest hint it will put you under scrutiny rather than them. Even misleadingly so - witness a fatal accident where Tesla said "the driver was not paying attention - the vehicle had warned him about taking his hands off the steering wheel", neglecting the ever so slight detail that it had warned him, once, and that warning occurred a quarter hour before the crash. Tesla collect all this data constantly, not just for entry into the FSD beta program.

esturk 5y ago

Marketplace actually had a segment this morning on this and why it's misleading. https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace-tech/teslas-full-self-driving-mode-is-actually-not-fully-self-driving https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace-tech/teslas-fu...

adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago

Have you watched the footage of the current "beta"? It's a scam. It runs into stationary objects. It drives into oncoming traffic. It runs red lights, makes illegal turns, drives straight toward other cars, and can't stay on the road. And that's footage recorded and edited by Tesla's biggest fans. "Full Self Driving" does not exist. Every indication is that it never will. I still can't believe no one's gone to prison over this. Tesla's "self driving" features are probably the biggest fraud in history with a body count to match.

dzader 5y ago
lol
colinmhayes 5y ago
People are terrible at driving. Releasing a half baked product to get data needed to improve it makes complete sense and deserves to be encouraged, even if people die. Because it the end it's likely that many lives will be saved.
- adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
  You don't get to smash a 4,000 pound explosive into a preschool because you want to gather data.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    If that data saves more lives it seems like a positive to me.
    - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
      If you ever find yourself in a position of power, please write these thoughts down. The prosecutor will find them helpful. We aren't dealing with hypothetical scenarios here. We are dealing with a real company that is really killing people in cold blood. People do not have the right to kill others because they guesstimate it's worth it. On planet Earth, not planet PH101, that's called murder. And that's being charitable. I don't believe for a second that Tesla's victims are sacrifices for the greater good. Tesla's technology is a dead end and the motivation is pumping the stock price.

gibolt 5y ago

The difference is scalability. Tesla can manufacture full equipped vehicles faster and for much cheaper. There are also already 1.5mil vehicles that could be turned on. They do not rely on HD maps. Even if they arrive 1-2 years later than Waymo/Cruise, they can quickly dominate the driverless market.

serioussecurity 5y ago
Tesla is 5 years behind and has no plans to begin work on a number of the key challenges they're facing.
wutbrodo 5y ago
> Even if they arrive 1-2 years later than Waymo/Cruise It's tough to anchor Tesla's arrival based on the rest of the industry's progress. Cruise and Waymo are heavily dependent on Lidar; Tesla is solving a fairly different technological problem.
ra7 5y ago
> Tesla can manufacture full equipped vehicles faster and for much cheaper. There are also already 1.5mil vehicles that could be turned on. This sounds like premature optimization. The real unsolved problem here is autonomous technology (software and hardware), not manufacturing equipped vehicles. No point having millions of vehicles if your self driving technology doesn't actually work. > They do not rely on HD maps. Precisely why FSD doesn't work and is still level 2. The AV players have shown fully autonomous driving needs HD maps and (inconspicuously) the only one not to graduate out of level 2 self driving is the one that's not using HD maps — Tesla. Creating/maintaining HD maps isn't nearly as hard as you think it is, but the benefits are incredible for safe driving.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]