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And how exactly is that a problem?

mayankkaizen 5y ago
That was sarcasm. But yeah, you can search for MongoDB and you'll come across many many posts criticizing it. It can be said Mongodb is hated ad much as Postgres is loved. Personally I have no opinion about mongodb.
- The_Colonel 5y ago
  Yes, and most of these love/hate memes are blowned out of proportion by people who don't actually have any real expertise in those technologies, but just parrot whatever they've read in some memes.
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    You're exactly correct. Tons of "XYZ is bad" because of some meme that they don't even understand or have context on that hasn't been relevant for years. I have no idea if MongoDB is good or bad at this point, but the comments of "haha it's mongo" are completely devoid of meaningful content and should be flagged.
    - operator9A 5y ago
      I was part of a team that operated a large Mongo cluster for most of the last decade. I would not have advised anyone to use Mongo as their durable source of truth database then, and I still don't think it's advisable to do so now. On numerous occasions, Mongo demonstrated the consequences of poor engineering judgment and an addled approach to logic in critical components responsible for data integrity. In addition, Mongo internalized many poor patterns with respect to performance and change management. Mongo did not, and does not provide the data integrity or performance guarantees that other databases internalize by design (the WiredTiger transition helped, but did not cure many of the issues). PostgreSQL introduced JSONB GIN index support sometime around 2015, making Postgres a better fit for most JSON-based applications than Mongo.
      - staticassertion 5y ago
        My issue isn't with people not liking Mongo. It's with contentless meme posts. Your post has real information that adds value to the conversation, and I appreciate that you took the time to write it out.
    - cztomsik 5y ago
      Because it's (or at least it definitely WAS) true. There are valid use-cases for mongo but for vast majority of things, you're better to start with postgres. And I say that as an early adopter - I really wanted mongo to succeed but it just failed all of my expectations. All of them. BTW: this is post about postgres.
- threeseed 5y ago
  You can find posts criticising every database. Most of the ones for MongoDB are from a decade ago and not at all relevant today.
tpxl 5y ago
Some things seem to have changed from 2018, but MongoDB was by far the worst database I ever had the displeasure of using (and Amazon DocumentDB was even worse). https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-3-6-4 https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-3-6-4 https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-4.2.6 https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-4.2.6
- jd_mongodb 5y ago
  Posting old Jepssen analyses is like pointing at old bug reports. Everytime Jepsen finds a bug we fix it lickety-split. I know it's not cool to focus on that fact, but it is a fact. The Jepsen tests are part of the MongoDB test suite so when we fix those problems they stay fixed. I would love to hear your personal experience of MongoDB as opposed to reposting old Jepsen reports. Perhaps there is something that we can address in 5.1 that is still a problem? (I work in developer relations at MongoDB)
  - sigmonsays 5y ago
    where is the latest jepsen test results published?
  - jenny91 5y ago
    The latest "old Jepsen report" is barely a year old. It's not like digging up dirt from years ago. It also seems like there was quite a lot wrong even a year ago, quoting from there: > Roughly 10% of transactions exhibited anomalies during normal operation, without faults. It's just not a very reassuring response to say "when someone goes to dig a bit and finds a lot of show-stopping bugs, we address those specific bugs quickly". To me it sounds like the architecture and care just isn't there for a robust data storage layer?
    - jiggawatts 5y ago
      Something that was drilled into me decades ago is that there is no such thing as fixing multi-threaded (or distributed) code via debugging or patching it "until it works". You either mathematically prove that it is correct, or it is wrong for certain. This sounds like an oddly strong statement to say, but the guy who wrote the textbook that contained that statement went on to dig up trivial looking examples from other textbooks that were subtly wrong. His more qualified statement is that if a professor writing simplified cases in textbooks can't get it right, then the overworked developer under time pressure writing something very complex has effectively zero chance. The MongoDB guys just don't understand this. They're convinced that if they plug just one more hole in the wire mesh, then it'll be good enough for their submarine. PS: The professor I was referring to is Doug Lea, who wrote the "EDU.oswego.cs.dl.util.concurrent" library for Java. This was then used as the basis for the official "java.util.concurrent".
TedShiller 5y ago
It's easier to ask how that is NOT a problem, because that list will be much, much shorter.

That was sarcasm. But yeah, you can search for MongoDB and you'll come across many many posts criticizing it. It can be said Mongodb is hated ad much as Postgres is loved. Personally I have no opinion about mongodb.

The_Colonel 5y ago
Yes, and most of these love/hate memes are blowned out of proportion by people who don't actually have any real expertise in those technologies, but just parrot whatever they've read in some memes.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  You're exactly correct. Tons of "XYZ is bad" because of some meme that they don't even understand or have context on that hasn't been relevant for years. I have no idea if MongoDB is good or bad at this point, but the comments of "haha it's mongo" are completely devoid of meaningful content and should be flagged.
  - operator9A 5y ago
    I was part of a team that operated a large Mongo cluster for most of the last decade. I would not have advised anyone to use Mongo as their durable source of truth database then, and I still don't think it's advisable to do so now. On numerous occasions, Mongo demonstrated the consequences of poor engineering judgment and an addled approach to logic in critical components responsible for data integrity. In addition, Mongo internalized many poor patterns with respect to performance and change management. Mongo did not, and does not provide the data integrity or performance guarantees that other databases internalize by design (the WiredTiger transition helped, but did not cure many of the issues). PostgreSQL introduced JSONB GIN index support sometime around 2015, making Postgres a better fit for most JSON-based applications than Mongo.
    - staticassertion 5y ago
      My issue isn't with people not liking Mongo. It's with contentless meme posts. Your post has real information that adds value to the conversation, and I appreciate that you took the time to write it out.
  - cztomsik 5y ago
    Because it's (or at least it definitely WAS) true. There are valid use-cases for mongo but for vast majority of things, you're better to start with postgres. And I say that as an early adopter - I really wanted mongo to succeed but it just failed all of my expectations. All of them. BTW: this is post about postgres.
threeseed 5y ago
You can find posts criticising every database. Most of the ones for MongoDB are from a decade ago and not at all relevant today.

tpxl 5y ago

Some things seem to have changed from 2018, but MongoDB was by far the worst database I ever had the displeasure of using (and Amazon DocumentDB was even worse). https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-3-6-4 https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-3-6-4 https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-4.2.6 https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-4.2.6

jd_mongodb 5y ago
Posting old Jepssen analyses is like pointing at old bug reports. Everytime Jepsen finds a bug we fix it lickety-split. I know it's not cool to focus on that fact, but it is a fact. The Jepsen tests are part of the MongoDB test suite so when we fix those problems they stay fixed. I would love to hear your personal experience of MongoDB as opposed to reposting old Jepsen reports. Perhaps there is something that we can address in 5.1 that is still a problem? (I work in developer relations at MongoDB)
- sigmonsays 5y ago
  where is the latest jepsen test results published?
- jenny91 5y ago
  The latest "old Jepsen report" is barely a year old. It's not like digging up dirt from years ago. It also seems like there was quite a lot wrong even a year ago, quoting from there: > Roughly 10% of transactions exhibited anomalies during normal operation, without faults. It's just not a very reassuring response to say "when someone goes to dig a bit and finds a lot of show-stopping bugs, we address those specific bugs quickly". To me it sounds like the architecture and care just isn't there for a robust data storage layer?
  - jiggawatts 5y ago
    Something that was drilled into me decades ago is that there is no such thing as fixing multi-threaded (or distributed) code via debugging or patching it "until it works". You either mathematically prove that it is correct, or it is wrong for certain. This sounds like an oddly strong statement to say, but the guy who wrote the textbook that contained that statement went on to dig up trivial looking examples from other textbooks that were subtly wrong. His more qualified statement is that if a professor writing simplified cases in textbooks can't get it right, then the overworked developer under time pressure writing something very complex has effectively zero chance. The MongoDB guys just don't understand this. They're convinced that if they plug just one more hole in the wire mesh, then it'll be good enough for their submarine. PS: The professor I was referring to is Doug Lea, who wrote the "EDU.oswego.cs.dl.util.concurrent" library for Java. This was then used as the basis for the official "java.util.concurrent".

TedShiller 5y ago

It's easier to ask how that is NOT a problem, because that list will be much, much shorter.