10 ms·

Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. At some point we have to accept that th

by belval 5y ago

Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it.

littlestymaar 5y ago
> At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it. What do we know about that? Microsoft have long lost the benefit of doubt with their shady data collection practices.
- the-dude 5y ago
  What kind of evil things have they done with the data? Genuinely curious.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bobmaxup 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10#Privacy_and_data_collection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10#Privac...
  - ginko 5y ago
    They're literally Microsoft. They've used up their lifetime supply of goodwill in the 90s.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Collected it without consent.
oneplane 5y ago
I don't think what type of application it is determines if a person has a right to their privacy if they want it. Same goes for data, we don't have to "accept" anything. On the other hand, if it wasn't Microsoft's brand being connected to this and it wasn't called telemetry but "Automatic Bug Report Sharing" nobody would make a peep. The same goes for the kind of data or application: if people know what type of data would be shared and what it would look like, they might indeed understand that this isn't some nefarious profiling but just normal software improvement. If you are a developer, bug reports are nearly useless unless it's super repeatable with normal conditions and a few clearly defined steps... or if there is a useful automatic reporting system in place. But none of that reduces someone's expectation of privacy or acceptance of data sharing.
hulitu 5y ago
It did not helped them fix problems in Teams, Windows and Office 365. Why do you think Minecraft will be different.
- mholm 5y ago
  Citation needed. Not every bug will be solved by telemetry, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't be in a very different state without it.
zh3 5y ago
Minecraft is a game played mostly by kids (minors). Tracking their behaviour, finding out what they try (even if just looking for ways to game the system) is pretty useful info.
sneak 5y ago
Windows-level telemetry is not "typical"; it includes a dozen or more different spy subsystems. Most spyware apps only include 1-3. If you are judging based on Windows as a benchmark, almost all software is going to come in as acceptable.
- belval 5y ago
  I just meant to say that wherever the line is, I don't think Minecraft telemetry is anything to get angry about.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Well Windows is a little bigger than most apps, wouldn't you say?
lmilcin 5y ago
But the explanation just does not satisfy me. I mean, world building is an expensive but actually pretty simple, predictable operation. If they want to see how it performs on slower computer they don't need to get telemetry, just actually run it on slower hardware.
- Thaxll 5y ago
  As if all problems are reproducable at will on all the different set of software / hardware out there ...
  - genewitch 5y ago
    In theory it ought to be, but since drivers are generally closed source we actually have to test on everything.
    - Thaxll 5y ago
      What I meant is that you don't know the problem until you had it, out of the millions of players you need feedback that something is not working properly, reports / telemetry is a must have. Most serious online games have such mechanism.
slg 5y ago
>At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too It is strange that this community of all communities has such a resistance to this idea. Software developers should know better than anyone how difficult it is to identify and fix vague software problems without having specific details about the problem. Yes, there is a negotiation between the value of telemetry and privacy and often too much privacy is sacrificed. But I am always surprised to hear developers say all telemetry is bad.
- koolba 5y ago
  It’s the difference between always sending something and a pop up asking if you want to send a bug report.
  - FinalBriefing 5y ago
    How about performance issues and silent errors? Finding areas that need to me optimized because a lot of users have subtle issues kinda needs passive data collection. As long as it is anonymous, it's a good thing, IMO.
    - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
      Yup. A previous company I worked at used assert calls in the code. In a debug build of the firmware, if an assert failed, it would crash the device and on the display it would show the file and line number of the assert call. In production firmware, it would silently ignore it, and if you had opted in to sending usage data, it would phone home and report the failed assert, though I don't know what extra data was included.
      - TeMPOraL 5y ago
        The key still being "if you had opted in".
    - JohnFen 5y ago
      > As long as it is anonymous, it's a good thing, IMO. As long as users give informed consent, then it's acceptable.
falcolas 5y ago
> they're not monetizing their players directly with it How do you know? Did they pinkie swear on it? Did they add any kind of T&C around their use of Telemetry specifically? Telemetry that can be used to identify frequently used game functionality could equally be used to identify game functionality that can be monetized. Identifying how a user dies is a fantastic way to identify items which can be sold to prevent those common deaths.
- filoleg 5y ago
  >Identifying how a user dies is a fantastic way to identify items which can be sold to prevent those common deaths. Just as commonly, it is done to identify bugs and issues, tweak the game balance to get it to a better state, or to see which things players like to do (as opposed to what they say on forums and in focus groups) in order to provide more of similar features. It is no different from engagement logging in a lot of applications. It is far from always being done for the purpose of monetization. If my business application has a lot of users stuck on a particular screen for prolonged periods of time due to the UX being confusing, I would want to know about it and address it. A lot of times it is hard to gauge how bad it is, because users might just tolerate it if it is ok, or maybe it is something users attribute to their own fault (i.e., they might feel it is just them being confused about it, not that the UX is confusing for everyone). Engagement logging would help me identify that problem and pinpoint it very fast. >How do you know [they are not using it for monetizing]? How do you know they are? I am more surprised they didn't have that type of telemetry already for a while, because that's one of the most common ways to identify pain-points in the gameplay balancing, which features might need more attention/rework, identifying potentially very tricky to catch bugs, and come up with ideas for new feature ideas that users might like based on actual data (as opposed to hearsay and public feedback, which can get significantly skewed by selection bias and other factors).
- Zandikar 5y ago
  Precisely. Another commenter said they were shocked to see this community have a negative reaction to telemetry in this instance (and/or generally), and this is why: For-Profit corporations have routinely and repeatedly demonstrated that they should never be given the benefit of the doubt in this area. The developers and engineers in charge of game balance or mechanics may be people we can intellectually relate to and understand the positive value of telemetry, but we more than most should also be aware of how those same people have management to answer to who see something to be abused to improve monetization. It can be a good thing, yes. Why on earth would anyone assume it would be used and only used in positive, privacy respecting ways in this day and age?
ginko 5y ago
> Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. But then Minecraft is a video game. Why do they need to spy on their customers?
- fomine3 5y ago
  Spy is not the purpose for telemetry in most cases.
II2II 5y ago
The problem is an irrational degree of distrust in the industry as a whole. It's not that I blame those who distrust any form of telemetry. Many companies are eager to harvest as much personal information as possible. Depending upon one's definition of personal information, some of the data acquired by telemetry can be used for that purpose. In many cases the data collection process is deliberately opaque. In the remaining cases, very few people have the ability to verify that what is actually sent reflects what they are told is sent. That's before factoring in Microsoft's involvement here, since they have a negative reputation in some circles due to their past business practices.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  I think the software industry as a whole has earned a high degree of distrust on these issues. It's not irrational.
rnd0 5y ago
ha ha ha I came here to troll -or at least point out tongue-in-cheek the same thing. But seriously though, it's not on the same level as, say -visual studio code sending back telemetry which includes potentially secret code or anything. Or Defenders willy-nilly sending "samples" back to the mothership for analysis. I sincerely don't mind it if a game sends this info back, I think it's actually a good use of Telemetry.
tinus_hn 5y ago
Typical telemetry could well consist of ‘what processes is the user running’, ‘what kind of hardware do they have’, ‘where is the user’ and ‘what is their data that can be matched to their advertising identifiers’. Which is the typical data that can be monetized.

by belval 5y ago

littlestymaar 5y ago

> At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it. What do we know about that? Microsoft have long lost the benefit of doubt with their shady data collection practices.

the-dude 5y ago
What kind of evil things have they done with the data? Genuinely curious.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bobmaxup 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10#Privacy_and_data_collection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10#Privac...
- ginko 5y ago
  They're literally Microsoft. They've used up their lifetime supply of goodwill in the 90s.
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  Collected it without consent.

oneplane 5y ago

I don't think what type of application it is determines if a person has a right to their privacy if they want it. Same goes for data, we don't have to "accept" anything. On the other hand, if it wasn't Microsoft's brand being connected to this and it wasn't called telemetry but "Automatic Bug Report Sharing" nobody would make a peep. The same goes for the kind of data or application: if people know what type of data would be shared and what it would look like, they might indeed understand that this isn't some nefarious profiling but just normal software improvement. If you are a developer, bug reports are nearly useless unless it's super repeatable with normal conditions and a few clearly defined steps... or if there is a useful automatic reporting system in place. But none of that reduces someone's expectation of privacy or acceptance of data sharing.

hulitu 5y ago

It did not helped them fix problems in Teams, Windows and Office 365. Why do you think Minecraft will be different.

mholm 5y ago
Citation needed. Not every bug will be solved by telemetry, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't be in a very different state without it.

zh3 5y ago

Minecraft is a game played mostly by kids (minors). Tracking their behaviour, finding out what they try (even if just looking for ways to game the system) is pretty useful info.

sneak 5y ago

Windows-level telemetry is not "typical"; it includes a dozen or more different spy subsystems. Most spyware apps only include 1-3. If you are judging based on Windows as a benchmark, almost all software is going to come in as acceptable.

belval 5y ago
I just meant to say that wherever the line is, I don't think Minecraft telemetry is anything to get angry about.
jaywalk 5y ago
Well Windows is a little bigger than most apps, wouldn't you say?

lmilcin 5y ago

But the explanation just does not satisfy me. I mean, world building is an expensive but actually pretty simple, predictable operation. If they want to see how it performs on slower computer they don't need to get telemetry, just actually run it on slower hardware.

Thaxll 5y ago
As if all problems are reproducable at will on all the different set of software / hardware out there ...
- genewitch 5y ago
  In theory it ought to be, but since drivers are generally closed source we actually have to test on everything.
  - Thaxll 5y ago
    What I meant is that you don't know the problem until you had it, out of the millions of players you need feedback that something is not working properly, reports / telemetry is a must have. Most serious online games have such mechanism.

slg 5y ago

>At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too It is strange that this community of all communities has such a resistance to this idea. Software developers should know better than anyone how difficult it is to identify and fix vague software problems without having specific details about the problem. Yes, there is a negotiation between the value of telemetry and privacy and often too much privacy is sacrificed. But I am always surprised to hear developers say all telemetry is bad.

koolba 5y ago
It’s the difference between always sending something and a pop up asking if you want to send a bug report.
- FinalBriefing 5y ago
  How about performance issues and silent errors? Finding areas that need to me optimized because a lot of users have subtle issues kinda needs passive data collection. As long as it is anonymous, it's a good thing, IMO.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    Yup. A previous company I worked at used assert calls in the code. In a debug build of the firmware, if an assert failed, it would crash the device and on the display it would show the file and line number of the assert call. In production firmware, it would silently ignore it, and if you had opted in to sending usage data, it would phone home and report the failed assert, though I don't know what extra data was included.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      The key still being "if you had opted in".
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    > As long as it is anonymous, it's a good thing, IMO. As long as users give informed consent, then it's acceptable.

falcolas 5y ago

> they're not monetizing their players directly with it How do you know? Did they pinkie swear on it? Did they add any kind of T&C around their use of Telemetry specifically? Telemetry that can be used to identify frequently used game functionality could equally be used to identify game functionality that can be monetized. Identifying how a user dies is a fantastic way to identify items which can be sold to prevent those common deaths.

filoleg 5y ago
>Identifying how a user dies is a fantastic way to identify items which can be sold to prevent those common deaths. Just as commonly, it is done to identify bugs and issues, tweak the game balance to get it to a better state, or to see which things players like to do (as opposed to what they say on forums and in focus groups) in order to provide more of similar features. It is no different from engagement logging in a lot of applications. It is far from always being done for the purpose of monetization. If my business application has a lot of users stuck on a particular screen for prolonged periods of time due to the UX being confusing, I would want to know about it and address it. A lot of times it is hard to gauge how bad it is, because users might just tolerate it if it is ok, or maybe it is something users attribute to their own fault (i.e., they might feel it is just them being confused about it, not that the UX is confusing for everyone). Engagement logging would help me identify that problem and pinpoint it very fast. >How do you know [they are not using it for monetizing]? How do you know they are? I am more surprised they didn't have that type of telemetry already for a while, because that's one of the most common ways to identify pain-points in the gameplay balancing, which features might need more attention/rework, identifying potentially very tricky to catch bugs, and come up with ideas for new feature ideas that users might like based on actual data (as opposed to hearsay and public feedback, which can get significantly skewed by selection bias and other factors).
Zandikar 5y ago
Precisely. Another commenter said they were shocked to see this community have a negative reaction to telemetry in this instance (and/or generally), and this is why: For-Profit corporations have routinely and repeatedly demonstrated that they should never be given the benefit of the doubt in this area. The developers and engineers in charge of game balance or mechanics may be people we can intellectually relate to and understand the positive value of telemetry, but we more than most should also be aware of how those same people have management to answer to who see something to be abused to improve monetization. It can be a good thing, yes. Why on earth would anyone assume it would be used and only used in positive, privacy respecting ways in this day and age?

ginko 5y ago

> Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. But then Minecraft is a video game. Why do they need to spy on their customers?

fomine3 5y ago
Spy is not the purpose for telemetry in most cases.

II2II 5y ago

The problem is an irrational degree of distrust in the industry as a whole. It's not that I blame those who distrust any form of telemetry. Many companies are eager to harvest as much personal information as possible. Depending upon one's definition of personal information, some of the data acquired by telemetry can be used for that purpose. In many cases the data collection process is deliberately opaque. In the remaining cases, very few people have the ability to verify that what is actually sent reflects what they are told is sent. That's before factoring in Microsoft's involvement here, since they have a negative reputation in some circles due to their past business practices.

JohnFen 5y ago
I think the software industry as a whole has earned a high degree of distrust on these issues. It's not irrational.

rnd0 5y ago

ha ha ha I came here to troll -or at least point out tongue-in-cheek the same thing. But seriously though, it's not on the same level as, say -visual studio code sending back telemetry which includes potentially secret code or anything. Or Defenders willy-nilly sending "samples" back to the mothership for analysis. I sincerely don't mind it if a game sends this info back, I think it's actually a good use of Telemetry.

tinus_hn 5y ago

Typical telemetry could well consist of ‘what processes is the user running’, ‘what kind of hardware do they have’, ‘where is the user’ and ‘what is their data that can be matched to their advertising identifiers’. Which is the typical data that can be monetized.