4 ms·

Some of us call ourselves "engineers". It just depends whether you want to pay the order for the privilege of having the title (and pretty much no other tangibl

by allo37 5y ago

Some of us call ourselves "engineers". It just depends whether you want to pay the order for the privilege of having the title (and pretty much no other tangible benefit in 90+% of cases) :).

wheelinsupial 5y ago
Genuine question. What is so important about the word "engineer" that people not licensed to practice it want to call themselves engineer? In Canada, I studied in a mechanical engineering technology program that lead to an engineering degree if you stayed on for 4 years. It was hammered into us that we weren't engineers until after you graduated and went through the professional licensing process. In Canada there is a way to become a P.Eng. in software engineering (and until 2018 in the US there was the P.E. in software engineering), so there is a way for someone who wants to be called a software engineer to legally obtain it. So why is there so much resistance?
- Drew_ 5y ago
  Because there's a pretty clear difference between software engineering and simply just writing code and people who do the former pride themselves on that work and want to be recognized for it as an engineer rather that just some programmer. You would much rather be recognized as the person who devises the plumbing system for a building rather than just being a "plumber".
  - wheelinsupial 5y ago
    There is a formal qualification process to be called an engineer. If they truly feel that they should be recognized, then they can go through the process. Because they aren't going through the process the word and the recognition can't be that valuable. I feel there is a contradiction in here somewhere that I can't reconcile.
    - coupdejarnac 5y ago
      Yeah, exactly. I got my degrees in electrical and computer engineering but mostly work as a software engineer. I got the PE just in case. The tests and other requirements are not exactly onerous; it's about what you'd expect for a worthwhile professional designation like becoming a CPA, an attorney, or even a CFA. Not to toot my own horn, but I cruised through the FE and PE exams, but those exams filter out lots of people. Do you really want engineers who are incapable of performing simple calculations? The exams represent a minimum level of competence, and they shouldn't be difficult if you stayed awake in college.
- allo37 5y ago
  Calling yourself an "engineer" involves licensing fees, continuing education, and the most fun of all - a university degree. Some jobs require you to be a member, but most of these jobs aren't in software. So most software people I know just use adjacent titles like "developer" or "designer". It's essentially the same job - just without all the extra responsibility. The word "engineer" has a certain social clout to it, though. Hard for your mom to brag to her friends if your title is "developer".
  - wheelinsupial 5y ago
    On the upper end (probably even in the middle) software developers earn more than licensed engineers. I'm pretty sure your mom can brag about her child the developer making 3x what her friend's child the engineer makes. There are engineers who end up moving to software for just this reason. Software is super important and becomes more so over time. I'm not sure why being proud of being a developer isn't enough and why it has to end up with wanting to use the term engineer.
    - allo37 5y ago
      Yeah, titles are a strange thing. There are a lot of PhDs out there earning bupkiss, but they're still "doctor"s, and that carries a certain respect. I agree it's mostly BS and doesn't make much sense, but I could say the same for much of reality...
- mywittyname 5y ago
  > So why is there so much resistance? Because, 1) a PE license is useless for software/computer engineering. 2) the FE exam covers a bunch of irrelevant material. 3) once you pass the FE exam, there's no real mechanism to advance because there are no apprenticeships available in computer engineering. And you can't take the PE exam without the apprenticeship. My college spent a lot of money getting an ABET accreditation for their CS/CE programs. As such, they pushed students really, really, really hard to take the FE exam. I went down the path to getting it and realized those aforementioned points. The study guide covered electronics theory that I had no idea about. It also covered silicon chemistry, which was only briefly covered at very high levels. So I'd be learning pretty complex topics on my own, which have no professional value. Then, if I wanted to take the PE exam, I'd have to find a job where I could apprentice for four years. And, as we know, sticking with a job that long is terrible for your lifetime earnings. So yeah, PEs are never going to be a thing in software unless they fundamentally change how engineers are licensed. Maybe if it was like nursing or law school where there's a big exam afterwards that you can take, and if you pass, you're licensed. But as it stands now, four years of apprenticeship after 4-5 years of schooling is ridiculous.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    Most companies already have the "apprenticeship" half-codified in "Junior Developer" versus "Senior Developer" distinctions or "Level Ranks" or other ladders like that. If you switch jobs mid-"apprenticeship" today in the software industry depending on who you interview with and how well you can negotiate you either "start over" at a low rank/level/job title or luck/bs into "skipping that step" and jumping to a higher rank/level/job. Standardizing that across the industry wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the industry. Similarly, PE licenses would be so hugely worth it to the industry if it saved everyone time in "technical interviews", both interviewees and interviewers alike. How many collective labor hours as an industry are we wasting annually on "technical interviews"? For most classic Civil Engineering firms the "technical" part of the interview is almost entirely "Is your PE license valid and up to date?" "Yes." "Great, you're hired." The software industry would rather waste multiple hours (if not entire days) of wages of everyone involved instead, and it's rather sad when you think about it.
- RNCTX 5y ago
  Because some people here are hiring people they need to work for less money.

by allo37 5y ago

Some of us call ourselves "engineers". It just depends whether you want to pay the order for the privilege of having the title (and pretty much no other tangible benefit in 90+% of cases) :).

wheelinsupial 5y ago

Genuine question. What is so important about the word "engineer" that people not licensed to practice it want to call themselves engineer? In Canada, I studied in a mechanical engineering technology program that lead to an engineering degree if you stayed on for 4 years. It was hammered into us that we weren't engineers until after you graduated and went through the professional licensing process. In Canada there is a way to become a P.Eng. in software engineering (and until 2018 in the US there was the P.E. in software engineering), so there is a way for someone who wants to be called a software engineer to legally obtain it. So why is there so much resistance?

Drew_ 5y ago
Because there's a pretty clear difference between software engineering and simply just writing code and people who do the former pride themselves on that work and want to be recognized for it as an engineer rather that just some programmer. You would much rather be recognized as the person who devises the plumbing system for a building rather than just being a "plumber".
- wheelinsupial 5y ago
  There is a formal qualification process to be called an engineer. If they truly feel that they should be recognized, then they can go through the process. Because they aren't going through the process the word and the recognition can't be that valuable. I feel there is a contradiction in here somewhere that I can't reconcile.
  - coupdejarnac 5y ago
    Yeah, exactly. I got my degrees in electrical and computer engineering but mostly work as a software engineer. I got the PE just in case. The tests and other requirements are not exactly onerous; it's about what you'd expect for a worthwhile professional designation like becoming a CPA, an attorney, or even a CFA. Not to toot my own horn, but I cruised through the FE and PE exams, but those exams filter out lots of people. Do you really want engineers who are incapable of performing simple calculations? The exams represent a minimum level of competence, and they shouldn't be difficult if you stayed awake in college.
allo37 5y ago
Calling yourself an "engineer" involves licensing fees, continuing education, and the most fun of all - a university degree. Some jobs require you to be a member, but most of these jobs aren't in software. So most software people I know just use adjacent titles like "developer" or "designer". It's essentially the same job - just without all the extra responsibility. The word "engineer" has a certain social clout to it, though. Hard for your mom to brag to her friends if your title is "developer".
- wheelinsupial 5y ago
  On the upper end (probably even in the middle) software developers earn more than licensed engineers. I'm pretty sure your mom can brag about her child the developer making 3x what her friend's child the engineer makes. There are engineers who end up moving to software for just this reason. Software is super important and becomes more so over time. I'm not sure why being proud of being a developer isn't enough and why it has to end up with wanting to use the term engineer.
  - allo37 5y ago
    Yeah, titles are a strange thing. There are a lot of PhDs out there earning bupkiss, but they're still "doctor"s, and that carries a certain respect. I agree it's mostly BS and doesn't make much sense, but I could say the same for much of reality...
mywittyname 5y ago
> So why is there so much resistance? Because, 1) a PE license is useless for software/computer engineering. 2) the FE exam covers a bunch of irrelevant material. 3) once you pass the FE exam, there's no real mechanism to advance because there are no apprenticeships available in computer engineering. And you can't take the PE exam without the apprenticeship. My college spent a lot of money getting an ABET accreditation for their CS/CE programs. As such, they pushed students really, really, really hard to take the FE exam. I went down the path to getting it and realized those aforementioned points. The study guide covered electronics theory that I had no idea about. It also covered silicon chemistry, which was only briefly covered at very high levels. So I'd be learning pretty complex topics on my own, which have no professional value. Then, if I wanted to take the PE exam, I'd have to find a job where I could apprentice for four years. And, as we know, sticking with a job that long is terrible for your lifetime earnings. So yeah, PEs are never going to be a thing in software unless they fundamentally change how engineers are licensed. Maybe if it was like nursing or law school where there's a big exam afterwards that you can take, and if you pass, you're licensed. But as it stands now, four years of apprenticeship after 4-5 years of schooling is ridiculous.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  Most companies already have the "apprenticeship" half-codified in "Junior Developer" versus "Senior Developer" distinctions or "Level Ranks" or other ladders like that. If you switch jobs mid-"apprenticeship" today in the software industry depending on who you interview with and how well you can negotiate you either "start over" at a low rank/level/job title or luck/bs into "skipping that step" and jumping to a higher rank/level/job. Standardizing that across the industry wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the industry. Similarly, PE licenses would be so hugely worth it to the industry if it saved everyone time in "technical interviews", both interviewees and interviewers alike. How many collective labor hours as an industry are we wasting annually on "technical interviews"? For most classic Civil Engineering firms the "technical" part of the interview is almost entirely "Is your PE license valid and up to date?" "Yes." "Great, you're hired." The software industry would rather waste multiple hours (if not entire days) of wages of everyone involved instead, and it's rather sad when you think about it.
RNCTX 5y ago
Because some people here are hiring people they need to work for less money.