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Microsoft lost their appeal in Quebec https://www.oiq.qc.ca/en/media/pressReleases/Pages/default.aspx?communiqueid=18 https://www.oiq.qc.ca/en/media/pressRelea

• agentultra 5y ago
  That's interesting, thanks for sharing! INAL; it seems, to me, difficult to enforce. You're not allowed to call yourself an engineer but you can still practice as one as long as you call yourself a developer. What's the difference? In practice... very little. Most developers I know do all the things professional engineers do. Unless the government wants to step in and say that you're not allowed to release software without a professional software engineer at the helm I think it's trivial. Unless a company pays the insurance of an engineer and faces severe penalties for disregarding their direction I don't see the point of hiring a professional software engineer. Companies will simply hire developers rather than deal with trifling matters like liability. And we'll continue to see avoidable security breaches in the wild for ever and onward because of it. The financial incentives are behind "move fast and break things," rather than "protect the public interest." (Mind you I think we should have more of the latter and I'm all for liability for the things we create as long as we're in control of our future... I'll take the exam if I can be brought in with my 20+ years of experience)
  • 908B64B197 5y ago
    In this case, I think the enforcement wasn't on the people using the tittle. Rather it was on Microsoft "granting" someone the tittle of "Engineer". "Microsoft Corporation announced in May 2001 its intention to stop using the term engineer in Canada in the title Microsoft Certified System Engineers - MCSE." Going against the individual professionals for using the tittle might have been harder. Some are probably real engineers or have received the certification but don't necessarily advertise themselves as engineers...
  • belval 5y ago
    It's a bit like saying that you are a doctor, nurse or a lawyer (attorney?). In Canada these are protected titles that can only be used if you are part of a professional order that has oversight over your activities and can audit your work at basically any time. There are some tasks that can only be performed if you are certified and pay the annual fees. Where this falls apart is that "Software Engineering" is a real discipline recognized by the organization that handles engineering programs in Canada, however there are no "reserved tasks" so a lot of Software Developers have a Software Engineering degree but can't call themselves that because they (rightfully in my opinion but still) refuse to pay the annual membership fees (about 600$) since their professional order is actually not equipped to audit software engineering work. Hopefully that helps a little.
    • agentultra 5y ago
      Exactly what I was trying to get across. The protected term is meaningless even if enforced, it seems to me, because there are no "reserved tasks," as you say. It's bit like... being able to practice law as long as you don't call yourself a lawyer. You're a legal assistant instead. In a similar fashion developers are practising software engineering without calling themselves, "engineers." I don't think we all need to be licensed in order to work -- but companies should be required to hire X number of licensed engineers per Y number of developers. They should be required to pay for the liability insurance to hire those licensed engineers. And there should be repercussions if the company goes against the engineers' direction.
      • auxym 5y ago
        For what it's worth, the latest revision of the Engineers Act in Quebec (2020, the previous revision was from 1962), has a much wider definition of engineering works and reserved acts, which does include software, if it can have an impact on the safety of persons. I am not a lawyer (mech engineer), but that's the message that the OIQ has been sending lately. It's unclear when and how they plan to start applying these new regulations.