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Am following this topic from another thread on HN today about soundscapes and binaural beats, and what is the theoretical framework behind it, or is it just sym

Am following this topic from another thread on HN today about soundscapes and binaural beats, and what is the theoretical framework behind it, or is it just sympathetic magic? I was in a meeting yesterday about the truth and reconciliation stuff going on in Canada right now, and the first hour of the meeting was given to people who were sharing their experiences of residential schools by telling stories about them. The storytellers were fantastic, and one of them had a mesmerising and hypnotic effect that I was trying to isolate as a technique. I could see others attempting it as well. I had seen a similar story telling technique used by top professional stage actors in the past. When you watch the documentary, "Wild Wild Country," which is about charismatic spiritual leadership, they use a similar verbal mesmerism technique that can give people "chills," which are also physiological response, just not a cardiogram effect. Working in tech, one encounters improbable clusters of professors, behavioral economics readers, intelligence operatives, ad-tech designers, political campaign operatives, magicians, hypnotists, practitioners of so-called NLP, "pick up artists," con artists, and other people who practice and apply systematized methods of persuasion. My interest in it is mainly for experimenting with music, but my own practice of a simlar dynamic would be exercising craft as a writer. Of what is this synchronization and mesmerism the effect?

Lidbob 5y ago
Quantum Phase Coherence. Sustaining it requires a lot of energy though.
warent 5y ago
I remember studies that showed brainwaves also synchronize between people who are interacting, especially intimately, and close romantic partners who have been together for many years often maintain a synchronization even when apart. Maybe related to that? In any case the human body and mind are wonderfully mysterious https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hyperscans-show-how-brains-sync-as-people-interact/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hyperscans-show-h...
mcbuilder 5y ago
I'm not an expert on this exact subject, but my PhD was in computational neuroscience, specifically spiking neural networks, and I became a bit interested in the area of binaural beats. On exposure to binaural beats, neural networks in the brain can to synchronize in patterns that can be observed in EEG recordings (eg, Theta or Beta oscillations). So, while the science is conflicting and not settled there is plenty of actual research into this area. See https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00426-018-1066-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00426-018-1066-8 for a recent meta-analysis.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  I once read that this effect with binaural beats only works with traditional electromagnetic headphones and doesn't appear when the kind of acoustic headphones used in MRI machines are used, but I can't for the life of me find a source on that. Any idea if this is true?
carapace 5y ago
It seems to be a very general phenomenon, first noticed by Christiaan Huygens. E.g. "32 Metronome Synchronization" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v5eBf2KwF8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v5eBf2KwF8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Huygens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Huygens See also "entrainment": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwave_entrainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwave_entrainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(biomusicology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(biomusicology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(chronobiology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(chronobiology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(physics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(physics) etc. There also seems (to some people) to be some form of "energetic" aspect to mesmerism/charisma but this has been contested going right back to Mesmer and Ben Franklin (in the West.) It's been rediscovered (and "debunked") several times in the last couple of centuries, for example Baron Von Reichenbach's "Odic force" and Wilhelm Reich's "Orgone". I should not fail to mention "chi" or "qi" in this context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_magnetism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_magnetism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi Gurdjieff called it "being-Hanbledzoïn" and said: > “Hanbledzoïn is nothing else than the ‘blood’ of the Kesdjan body of the being; just as the cosmic substances called in totality blood serve for nourishing and renewing the planetary body of the being, so also Hanbledzoïn serves in the same way for nourishing and perfecting the body Kesdjan. https://gurdjieff.work/ae/terms/en50/0238.htm https://gurdjieff.work/ae/terms/en50/0238.htm To the scientific skeptic this is all nonsense, of course.
mistermann 5y ago
> The storytellers were fantastic, and one of them had a mesmerising and hypnotic effect that I was trying to isolate as a technique. I could see others attempting it as well. Complete wild guess here, but I wonder if the indigenous speaking style might have developed from story telling during sweat lodge ceremonies? > My interest in it is mainly for experimenting with music, but my own practice of a simlar dynamic would be exercising craft as a writer. I've never been to one, but from anecdotal stories I've read, EDM concerts (especially when combined with psychedelics, which is pretty common) are often described as if they have a religious ritual element to them. Whatever it is, psychedelics + EDM music certainly does something very strange to the mind, and group chanting rituals can be found all over the place in different cultures throughout history.

Lidbob 5y ago

Quantum Phase Coherence. Sustaining it requires a lot of energy though.

warent 5y ago

I remember studies that showed brainwaves also synchronize between people who are interacting, especially intimately, and close romantic partners who have been together for many years often maintain a synchronization even when apart. Maybe related to that? In any case the human body and mind are wonderfully mysterious https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hyperscans-show-how-brains-sync-as-people-interact/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hyperscans-show-h...

mcbuilder 5y ago

I'm not an expert on this exact subject, but my PhD was in computational neuroscience, specifically spiking neural networks, and I became a bit interested in the area of binaural beats. On exposure to binaural beats, neural networks in the brain can to synchronize in patterns that can be observed in EEG recordings (eg, Theta or Beta oscillations). So, while the science is conflicting and not settled there is plenty of actual research into this area. See https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00426-018-1066-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00426-018-1066-8 for a recent meta-analysis.

BoxOfRain 5y ago
I once read that this effect with binaural beats only works with traditional electromagnetic headphones and doesn't appear when the kind of acoustic headphones used in MRI machines are used, but I can't for the life of me find a source on that. Any idea if this is true?

carapace 5y ago

It seems to be a very general phenomenon, first noticed by Christiaan Huygens. E.g. "32 Metronome Synchronization" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v5eBf2KwF8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v5eBf2KwF8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Huygens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Huygens See also "entrainment": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwave_entrainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwave_entrainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(biomusicology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(biomusicology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(chronobiology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(chronobiology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(physics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_(physics) etc. There also seems (to some people) to be some form of "energetic" aspect to mesmerism/charisma but this has been contested going right back to Mesmer and Ben Franklin (in the West.) It's been rediscovered (and "debunked") several times in the last couple of centuries, for example Baron Von Reichenbach's "Odic force" and Wilhelm Reich's "Orgone". I should not fail to mention "chi" or "qi" in this context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_magnetism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_magnetism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi Gurdjieff called it "being-Hanbledzoïn" and said: > “Hanbledzoïn is nothing else than the ‘blood’ of the Kesdjan body of the being; just as the cosmic substances called in totality blood serve for nourishing and renewing the planetary body of the being, so also Hanbledzoïn serves in the same way for nourishing and perfecting the body Kesdjan. https://gurdjieff.work/ae/terms/en50/0238.htm https://gurdjieff.work/ae/terms/en50/0238.htm To the scientific skeptic this is all nonsense, of course.

mistermann 5y ago

> The storytellers were fantastic, and one of them had a mesmerising and hypnotic effect that I was trying to isolate as a technique. I could see others attempting it as well. Complete wild guess here, but I wonder if the indigenous speaking style might have developed from story telling during sweat lodge ceremonies? > My interest in it is mainly for experimenting with music, but my own practice of a simlar dynamic would be exercising craft as a writer. I've never been to one, but from anecdotal stories I've read, EDM concerts (especially when combined with psychedelics, which is pretty common) are often described as if they have a religious ritual element to them. Whatever it is, psychedelics + EDM music certainly does something very strange to the mind, and group chanting rituals can be found all over the place in different cultures throughout history.