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Disappoint with the HN community reading the comments here. Sure FF is not perfect, but they are actually changing how the industry is working and deserve a lot

Disappoint with the HN community reading the comments here. Sure FF is not perfect, but they are actually changing how the industry is working and deserve a lot of support. They are changing how mining is done, how workers are treated and are attempting the change the rules on planned obsolescence. And they are actually getting some advance on all these areas.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> attempting the change the rules on planned obsolescence What rules are there at the moment on planned obsolescence? I don't think there are any to change?
- grumpyprole 5y ago
  We don't have enough laws to protect consumers and the environment. Such laws actually help businesses that do want to do the right thing remain competitive. So how about a law that guarantees security updates for at least 5 years, so these phones don't become e-waste before their time? Or a law for user serviceable battery replacement?
- joshuajill 5y ago
  Exactly, the EU has been working on that for a while, I believe some rules have been created recently.
joshuajill 5y ago
Oh and supporting the Open Source community, empowering users to own their OS.
crisdux 5y ago
I am equally disappointed when I read comments like yours that demand some sort of ideological purity and agreement. How selfish. Meta comments that disparage the HN community are so weird. This community is made up of a lot of different people with varying perspectives. We should celebrate its diversity.
- quitit 5y ago
  It's fair game to make commentary about a community when there is obvious, widespread myopia. Also quietly amused by the hypocrisy of your comment.
  - Reubachi 5y ago
    Do you know anything about the company behind fairphone? The top voted comments criticizing them all have clearly valid claims. it does not matter if the "ethical" product is good if the company behind them isn't ethical.
    - quitit 5y ago
      You're making the position that everyone should have the same opinion. I'm making the position that cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't productive.
- joshuajill 5y ago
  My comment is about the focus being almost 100% on user experience, the fair phone is about much more than that. It's exactly the lack of diversity that was bothering me.
  - gpt5 5y ago
    The top comment is about them not keeping up with their upgrade parts instead of replacing the phone promise, seems to cover sustainability as well.
    - joshuajill 5y ago
      From what they said in the presentation video QA, they will be keeping that promise.
- fouric 5y ago
  > Meta comments that disparage the HN community are so weird. I think I can provide an explanation for their increasing popularity: people have figured out that it gives a cheap boost to the "legitimacy" of their comment without adding any actual substance, partially because it stirs a feeling of guilt and wanting to "be better" (either than the rest of HN, or as an individual). Needless to say, it's just another form of emotional manipulation that doesn't add anything to the discussion. The guidelines already discourage this kind of thing: "Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community."[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
quitit 5y ago
I don't find it frustrating that people can't give credit where it's due. However I do find it frustrating that people will go out of their way to attack these efforts due to some unrealistic and idealistic expectations. If a company, even one that is disliked, does something good - then that effort should be congratulated. That's how you change an industry - to treat such as pariahs merely proves that such efforts are not compelling to users and hinders progress. Also the author (and most of HN) seemingly forgets that wired headphone options exist for the USB-C port.
- onli 5y ago
  Those block the USB-Port, and to rely on dongles is so Apple. The headphone jack is a signal. When Apple removed it people like me pledged to never support such a customer hostile move. Google's flip flop on that issue just made this conviction stronger. To remove that port is simply unacceptable, especially in a product aimed at minimizing waste. I wonder whether this position is rare, or if FP just does not know its customer base.
  - joshuajill 5y ago
    They say they had to ditch the jack in order to have water-proof certification and still be user repairable. Also to avoid having more bulky design.
    - onli 5y ago
      Then they should have not released a new phone, but a new board for the FP3(+). They are not a regular company that needs to do such moves, and besides: The Framework laptop shows that there usually is a way, despite what companies say.
      - joshuajill 5y ago
        The smartphone market evolves very quickly, much more so than the laptops, which also have a lot more of wiggle space for components.
Godel_unicode 5y ago
> They are changing how mining is done There's no chance that this is true. They're buying the same components from the same suppliers, and they're laughably small compared to Google, nevermind Apple or Samsung.
- joshuajill 5y ago
  Yes but, they are. They are supporting fair mining projects and contributing to players that certify fair mineral sourcing. And they're raising awareness in the process.
  - uuddlrlr 5y ago
    I went looking for sources and found this nice article that neatly lays out the land of rare earth mineral mining: https://www.fairphone.com/en/2021/02/08/fair-mining/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/2021/02/08/fair-mining/ I've seen some videos of ASM lithium mines, stuff is nightmare inducing. The videographers spotted a handful of children in the hills trying not to be seen. I think it's doable, it'd be similar to setting up and auditing your own green coffee beans; it wouldn't be particularly capital intensive.
  - Godel_unicode 5y ago
    They are talking about changing mining. They are not changing mining. They talk about how they are using their purchasing power to change things, but they have no purchasing power. The person at Qualcomm who makes those decisions probably has no idea that some company called fairphone is a Qualcomm customer. This is the same but even moreso for lithium. "We are working with our battery supplier to integrate lithium from IRMA-assessed mines into our battery supply chain" this line could mean anything from actually doing something to "we sent one email". Before you believe that someone is making a difference, be sure they are. Fp is not.
Jensson 5y ago
Do you got any evidence that they are changing anything? Talk is cheap, any links to an article where they actually changed something and not just them talking about changing things?
- joshuajill 5y ago
  Hope you have Google it in the mean time.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Then I'll just assume that you didn't have a point. You can't really get angry at people for not understanding your side as you did in your original post without giving any reason for people to take your side. Edit: The main reason to be wary of "fair" brands is that they put extremely huge markups and motivate that by paying a tiny bit more for their parts, making them really profitable. You'd need to show people that it is better to pay for a fairphone and that they actually deliver on their promises, over paying for a cheap phone and donating the difference to a good cause.
    - joshuajill 5y ago
      Well it's your word against independent certifications and transparency reports. It's on you to show otherwise, unless you just want to troll fairphone.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> attempting the change the rules on planned obsolescence What rules are there at the moment on planned obsolescence? I don't think there are any to change?

grumpyprole 5y ago
We don't have enough laws to protect consumers and the environment. Such laws actually help businesses that do want to do the right thing remain competitive. So how about a law that guarantees security updates for at least 5 years, so these phones don't become e-waste before their time? Or a law for user serviceable battery replacement?
joshuajill 5y ago
Exactly, the EU has been working on that for a while, I believe some rules have been created recently.

joshuajill 5y ago

Oh and supporting the Open Source community, empowering users to own their OS.

crisdux 5y ago

I am equally disappointed when I read comments like yours that demand some sort of ideological purity and agreement. How selfish. Meta comments that disparage the HN community are so weird. This community is made up of a lot of different people with varying perspectives. We should celebrate its diversity.

quitit 5y ago
It's fair game to make commentary about a community when there is obvious, widespread myopia. Also quietly amused by the hypocrisy of your comment.
- Reubachi 5y ago
  Do you know anything about the company behind fairphone? The top voted comments criticizing them all have clearly valid claims. it does not matter if the "ethical" product is good if the company behind them isn't ethical.
  - quitit 5y ago
    You're making the position that everyone should have the same opinion. I'm making the position that cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't productive.
joshuajill 5y ago
My comment is about the focus being almost 100% on user experience, the fair phone is about much more than that. It's exactly the lack of diversity that was bothering me.
- gpt5 5y ago
  The top comment is about them not keeping up with their upgrade parts instead of replacing the phone promise, seems to cover sustainability as well.
  - joshuajill 5y ago
    From what they said in the presentation video QA, they will be keeping that promise.
fouric 5y ago
> Meta comments that disparage the HN community are so weird. I think I can provide an explanation for their increasing popularity: people have figured out that it gives a cheap boost to the "legitimacy" of their comment without adding any actual substance, partially because it stirs a feeling of guilt and wanting to "be better" (either than the rest of HN, or as an individual). Needless to say, it's just another form of emotional manipulation that doesn't add anything to the discussion. The guidelines already discourage this kind of thing: "Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community."[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

quitit 5y ago

I don't find it frustrating that people can't give credit where it's due. However I do find it frustrating that people will go out of their way to attack these efforts due to some unrealistic and idealistic expectations. If a company, even one that is disliked, does something good - then that effort should be congratulated. That's how you change an industry - to treat such as pariahs merely proves that such efforts are not compelling to users and hinders progress. Also the author (and most of HN) seemingly forgets that wired headphone options exist for the USB-C port.

onli 5y ago
Those block the USB-Port, and to rely on dongles is so Apple. The headphone jack is a signal. When Apple removed it people like me pledged to never support such a customer hostile move. Google's flip flop on that issue just made this conviction stronger. To remove that port is simply unacceptable, especially in a product aimed at minimizing waste. I wonder whether this position is rare, or if FP just does not know its customer base.
- joshuajill 5y ago
  They say they had to ditch the jack in order to have water-proof certification and still be user repairable. Also to avoid having more bulky design.
  - onli 5y ago
    Then they should have not released a new phone, but a new board for the FP3(+). They are not a regular company that needs to do such moves, and besides: The Framework laptop shows that there usually is a way, despite what companies say.
    - joshuajill 5y ago
      The smartphone market evolves very quickly, much more so than the laptops, which also have a lot more of wiggle space for components.

Godel_unicode 5y ago

> They are changing how mining is done There's no chance that this is true. They're buying the same components from the same suppliers, and they're laughably small compared to Google, nevermind Apple or Samsung.

joshuajill 5y ago
Yes but, they are. They are supporting fair mining projects and contributing to players that certify fair mineral sourcing. And they're raising awareness in the process.
- uuddlrlr 5y ago
  I went looking for sources and found this nice article that neatly lays out the land of rare earth mineral mining: https://www.fairphone.com/en/2021/02/08/fair-mining/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/2021/02/08/fair-mining/ I've seen some videos of ASM lithium mines, stuff is nightmare inducing. The videographers spotted a handful of children in the hills trying not to be seen. I think it's doable, it'd be similar to setting up and auditing your own green coffee beans; it wouldn't be particularly capital intensive.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  They are talking about changing mining. They are not changing mining. They talk about how they are using their purchasing power to change things, but they have no purchasing power. The person at Qualcomm who makes those decisions probably has no idea that some company called fairphone is a Qualcomm customer. This is the same but even moreso for lithium. "We are working with our battery supplier to integrate lithium from IRMA-assessed mines into our battery supply chain" this line could mean anything from actually doing something to "we sent one email". Before you believe that someone is making a difference, be sure they are. Fp is not.

Jensson 5y ago

Do you got any evidence that they are changing anything? Talk is cheap, any links to an article where they actually changed something and not just them talking about changing things?

joshuajill 5y ago
Hope you have Google it in the mean time.
- Jensson 5y ago
  Then I'll just assume that you didn't have a point. You can't really get angry at people for not understanding your side as you did in your original post without giving any reason for people to take your side. Edit: The main reason to be wary of "fair" brands is that they put extremely huge markups and motivate that by paying a tiny bit more for their parts, making them really profitable. You'd need to show people that it is better to pay for a fairphone and that they actually deliver on their promises, over paying for a cheap phone and donating the difference to a good cause.
  - joshuajill 5y ago
    Well it's your word against independent certifications and transparency reports. It's on you to show otherwise, unless you just want to troll fairphone.