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I know that the Weimar Republic had anti-semitic censorship laws. I made almost the same argument that you are making just 2 months ago: https://news.ycombinat

I know that the Weimar Republic had anti-semitic censorship laws. I made almost the same argument that you are making just 2 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27865484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27865484 "My understanding is that pre-Nazi Germany had hate speech laws, and it didn't seem to work there?" I abandoned my views on this question for a few reasons: - The Weimar Republic laws either weren't effective at preventing distribution or they weren't actually enforced. The continued circulation of Der Sturmer is evidence of this. The judiciary was known to be heavily biased in favor of the far-right, where less than 10% of far-right political killers were convicted and the majority of far-left political killers were convicted. - Online censorship is far less likely to create martyrs than the visual/emotional imagery of imprisoning people. - Online censorship is far more effective at preventing distribution. - Failing to censor online leads to automatic mass-distribution due to the consolidation of eyeballs in a small number of venues. Failing to censor offline does not. There is less scale to be had offline. - Online censorship that we're talking about is private and voluntary. It is not in the same category as government censorship as far as downside risk is concerned. > Given that what you advocate for is virtually identical It is not "virtually identical". As I've said, the context is extremely different. You can't draw an analogy as much as you keep trying.

notchFilter54 5y ago
>I know that the Weimar Republic had censorship laws. I made almost the same argument that you are making just 2 months ago: What? The anti-semetic expressions crime thing is a fact, not an argument (I am against censorship laws!). I was honestly completely knocked cold fthat you came to the conclusion I was making your argument. The takeaway isn't that hate speech laws work, it's that they don't. I'm pro hate speech and anti-censorship. I don't like it, but I'm pro allowing it. I'm making your counter argument. In fact you seem to be listing many of the reasons why hate speech laws don't prevent Naziism. >I abandoned my views on this question for a few reasons: I'm surprised you chose not to learn from your responses and realize the folly of restricting "hate speech." It doesn't seem you abandoned anything, it seems you double downed. >It is not "virtually identical". As I've said, the context is extremely different. You can't draw an analogy as much as you keep trying. You can bury your head in the sand if you like, but no matter how hard as you keep trying to think they aren't virtually identical, they still will be. What you advocate is extremely similar and you are oblivious and disconnected to the reality of the similarity between our current censorship laws and those of the Weimar Republic. I'm not drawing an analogy, I'm saying you are literally advocating for the policy of the Weimar Republic under which Hitler was elected, with only the slightest of differences (their laws were ever so slightly more restricted due to some spottily enforced hate speech laws). The Weimar's Republic policy was literally free speech, sans some poorly enforced hate speech laws, plus private and/or voluntary censorship, which is your option (2). In fact your precise option (2) was free speech + private/voluntary regulation, but you admitted that Weimar's hate speech laws were essentially useless. The internet is just another media of communication. That's it. You said yourself hitler reached over half of voters with his speech. That's probably a greater voter penetration than even what reddit reaches. You make some arguments why hate speech laws weren't very effective at the speeches but then you think they will be even more effective at something with even lower voter distribution than these speeches that you say went to more than half of voters. >Having said that, it's true that for some people no amount of reasoning or persuasion will work Some people are their own soothsayer. Have fun in your censored future insulated from reality and the opinion of others, left to the discretion of whatever "private" entity believes is allowed truths.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  "I was honestly completely knocked cold fthat you came to the conclusion I was making your argument. The takeaway isn't that hate speech laws work, it's that they don't." You've misunderstood. I was previously arguing that they don't work, not that they do work. Read the old post of mine that I linked. "What you advocate is extremely similar and you are oblivious and disconnected to the reality of the similarity between our current censorship laws and those of the Weimar Republic." I outlined the reasons why these are different situations which you haven't addressed in your reply.
  - notchFilter54 5y ago
    >You've misunderstood. I was previously arguing that they don't work, not that they do work. Read the old post of mine that I linked. I'm confused. Are you currently arguing for or against laws against hate speech? I thought you had chosen the previous path (2) which was free speech + private and/or voluntary restrictions. >I was previously arguing that they don't work Did you change your mind? You genuinely believed in free speech 2 months ago and now believe the government can dictate what is "hate speech"? You abandoned your position on free speech due to learning hate speech laws were ineffective in the Weimar Republic, and that led you to decide to be for hate speech laws? If so, something here doesn't add up. The argument I was making when mentioning Weimar Republic was that it was effectively free speech with private and/or voluntary regulation, which was what you chose in path (2). The note about the (largely meaningless) criminality of anti-Semitic speech was a footnote so that I did not inaccurately describe the situation, although as you noted hate speech laws could be used as a tool against the anti-Nazis as much as against Naziism. The note about the anti-semetic law was not in any way a center point of my argument (although it did appear to be one of yours in the 2 month old comment).

notchFilter54 5y ago

>I know that the Weimar Republic had censorship laws. I made almost the same argument that you are making just 2 months ago: What? The anti-semetic expressions crime thing is a fact, not an argument (I am against censorship laws!). I was honestly completely knocked cold fthat you came to the conclusion I was making your argument. The takeaway isn't that hate speech laws work, it's that they don't. I'm pro hate speech and anti-censorship. I don't like it, but I'm pro allowing it. I'm making your counter argument. In fact you seem to be listing many of the reasons why hate speech laws don't prevent Naziism. >I abandoned my views on this question for a few reasons: I'm surprised you chose not to learn from your responses and realize the folly of restricting "hate speech." It doesn't seem you abandoned anything, it seems you double downed. >It is not "virtually identical". As I've said, the context is extremely different. You can't draw an analogy as much as you keep trying. You can bury your head in the sand if you like, but no matter how hard as you keep trying to think they aren't virtually identical, they still will be. What you advocate is extremely similar and you are oblivious and disconnected to the reality of the similarity between our current censorship laws and those of the Weimar Republic. I'm not drawing an analogy, I'm saying you are literally advocating for the policy of the Weimar Republic under which Hitler was elected, with only the slightest of differences (their laws were ever so slightly more restricted due to some spottily enforced hate speech laws). The Weimar's Republic policy was literally free speech, sans some poorly enforced hate speech laws, plus private and/or voluntary censorship, which is your option (2). In fact your precise option (2) was free speech + private/voluntary regulation, but you admitted that Weimar's hate speech laws were essentially useless. The internet is just another media of communication. That's it. You said yourself hitler reached over half of voters with his speech. That's probably a greater voter penetration than even what reddit reaches. You make some arguments why hate speech laws weren't very effective at the speeches but then you think they will be even more effective at something with even lower voter distribution than these speeches that you say went to more than half of voters. >Having said that, it's true that for some people no amount of reasoning or persuasion will work Some people are their own soothsayer. Have fun in your censored future insulated from reality and the opinion of others, left to the discretion of whatever "private" entity believes is allowed truths.

fighterpilot 5y ago
"I was honestly completely knocked cold fthat you came to the conclusion I was making your argument. The takeaway isn't that hate speech laws work, it's that they don't." You've misunderstood. I was previously arguing that they don't work, not that they do work. Read the old post of mine that I linked. "What you advocate is extremely similar and you are oblivious and disconnected to the reality of the similarity between our current censorship laws and those of the Weimar Republic." I outlined the reasons why these are different situations which you haven't addressed in your reply.
- notchFilter54 5y ago
  >You've misunderstood. I was previously arguing that they don't work, not that they do work. Read the old post of mine that I linked. I'm confused. Are you currently arguing for or against laws against hate speech? I thought you had chosen the previous path (2) which was free speech + private and/or voluntary restrictions. >I was previously arguing that they don't work Did you change your mind? You genuinely believed in free speech 2 months ago and now believe the government can dictate what is "hate speech"? You abandoned your position on free speech due to learning hate speech laws were ineffective in the Weimar Republic, and that led you to decide to be for hate speech laws? If so, something here doesn't add up. The argument I was making when mentioning Weimar Republic was that it was effectively free speech with private and/or voluntary regulation, which was what you chose in path (2). The note about the (largely meaningless) criminality of anti-Semitic speech was a footnote so that I did not inaccurately describe the situation, although as you noted hate speech laws could be used as a tool against the anti-Nazis as much as against Naziism. The note about the anti-semetic law was not in any way a center point of my argument (although it did appear to be one of yours in the 2 month old comment).