5 ms·

> They even give you a dialog prompt now to inform you slightly tangential, I hate being informed of things when I try to do them. I'm in a hurry, I don't want

> They even give you a dialog prompt now to inform you slightly tangential, I hate being informed of things when I try to do them. I'm in a hurry, I don't want to read all about something now. I wish the dialogs had an "email this to me, willya?" selection, with an opportunity to decide the long term setting that I want.

arthurcolle 5y ago
this lowers engagement metrics, so probably not going to happen
- fsckboy 5y ago
  the modal dialog that interrupts my flow is forcing engagement, adding a choice doesn't change anything
- letitbeirie 5y ago
  Depends how long your after-update tutorial is. We ran an A/B test on some 3-pane and 8-pane versions of these at my last job and on the long ones with a "dismiss" button IIRC it took our users something like 3.4 panes to hit it on average. The long ones without the dismiss button got people to view panes 7 and 8 a lot more often but there was a noticeable (albeit small) uptick in users who left the site entirely instead of finishing.
SilverRed 5y ago
Ultimately it doesn't really matter anyway. Unless you are the worlds most wanted criminal and Apple is working with the government to track you down via your turned off iphone. And in that case, you should have done your research to see this anyway. If the average user blows past this message, it has no impact on their life.
- crossroadsguy 5y ago
  Yup. “Nothing to hide!”
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    This makes no sense. If you want to hide, just tap the warning and it gives you the option to turn off the feature. So it works best for everyone. The average person can track their stolen phones now. And people hiding from the government can still turn it off.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  From the referenced tweet thread about someone finding this out for the first time: In other news I updated my phone to iOS 15 and put it down to charge last night. When I woke up it was hot, and my battery has gone from 100% to 15% since 7:30am. I gotta get off this ecosystem. "My phone's battery life has suddenly become much worse" sure sounds like a major impact to me.
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    That has nothing to do with this change. It doesn't even seem like they had their phone turned off for this to be in play anyway. The most likely answer is that they hit a bug in the new update or that they placed their phone off centered on a wireless charger. I'm not sure why the general public should care about rare bugs in day one updates which get patched pretty quick anyway. The turned off pings use an ultra low power mode similar to the airtags which should last months on a "flat" battery.
    - AuthorizedCust 5y ago
      > … placed their phone off centered on a wireless charger. No. The phone got charged. That’s made clear in the quote. Something is draining it post-charge.
  - AlphaSite 5y ago
    IIRC after an update your phone starts to reindex everything so for a short while battery is impacted.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Ah, a new version of the 'nothing to hide' argument. Thanks.
- halikular 5y ago
  The Chinese, Russians or Belarusians wouldn't agree with you. There's plenty of people there doing "illegal things". Why should you care? You never know when something can become illegal in the future or the social equivalent of cancelling. You might have made a joke that's not okay in the future, criticized a leader, read a book, played a game, used a VPN...
Jtsummers 5y ago
In this case, there's a bit of extra text that is clearly clickable (has the now standard arrow to the right indicating there's something more). Then there's a dialog box describing the system and two choices: OK, Temporarily Turn Off Finding. The modal dialog could be replaced with a toggle on the same screen as the power off slider in place of that text, and maybe one day it will be. But right now, since the feature is novel, it's probably worth it to have the extra bit of text so people know what the options are that they're selecting between. As far as slowing you down, you're shutting down your phone. If you only want to temporarily turn this off, yes, you're slowed down by about 0.5 seconds But if you are really concerned about this feature you've also had opportunities while using the phone to disable it so that it is permanently off in which case you can just use the power off slider and be done with it.
- jychang 5y ago
  It's less complaining about the existence of the text, and moreso there's a lack of a way to remind you about reading this later.
fzzzy 5y ago
take a screenshot
- fsckboy 5y ago
  usually it's a carousel
lolsal 5y ago
You made a decision before you had all the information, but you're so busy you don't want to reconsider your decision after learning new information?
- wyattpeak 5y ago
  This sounds an awful lot like defences of hundred page EULAs: "So you made a decision not to read it...". No, it was intentionally designed in a way which discourages reading. In the case of this warning, it's possible that it was unintentionally designed in a way which discourages reading, but regardless the fault lies, at least in part, with the design.
  - aksss 5y ago
    It's all about timing. My computer and phone are work tools, and I can't stand the things they do at an OS and app level that get in the way of me doing my work, because most often when I do it, I'm in a really big hurry to get it done. A simple dismissible notice of "hey we need to talk later about some stuff" and an easy place to view that queue would go a long way to improving this state of affairs.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      As much as I agree with you, honestly, when are you ever going to get to that queue of messages? Even my email inbox is overflowing with the not-emergency messages, as it has been doing since 2006 or so.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    I think it's two-fold. Part of EULAs are just discouragement. But part of it is that the legal community doesn't do "simple and clear". Due to the weaselish twisting of words in lawsuits everything has to be airtightly formulated and that causes a bunch of legal terms and extremely explicit descriptions which basically makes legal documents unreadable for normal people. Which also benefits the legal community by keeping them in a job, obviously. "Get it checked by legal/my lawyer" rather than just reading what you're signing up to is definitely a thing. I wish the legal system was more focused on clarity and common sense rather than the hard letter of the law.
jbay808 5y ago
Agreed! The worst time to try to tell me about new features is right when I'm firing up my web meeting client to join a meeting that's about to start.
Causality1 5y ago
Seconded. I get so sick of dismissing that idiotic Android warning whenever I turn my VPN on.
rkagerer 5y ago
Same complaint for those annoying "how to use our website or Electron app" tutorials the first time you sign in or after updates. Make help discoverable, don't ram it down our throats, please.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  Sorry, but we have to :) We added loads of genuinely useful new features to our SaaS app over the past year, such as the ability to mute notifications, quick user-switching with a PIN, and non-exclusive user role membership, and more - despite mentioning this in our monthly user newsletter we still get peppered with support emails and feature-requests for things that already exist! Additionally our feature-usage data showed that users just weren’t using them. After we added a forced (but only 15 second long) new-feature-tour those support tickets evaporated and user-satisfaction went up. Gotta use tough-love, it seems. —————— Users are weird - we have a bog-standard “user menu” in the top-right corner that’s got the usual visual-affordances and opened by just hovering your name and avatars - with menu items like Logout, Switch User, Dark Mode, etc - but to our surprise the vast majority of our users simply never explore the software.
  - dcow 5y ago
    Maybe it could be opt out at the end of the first onboard/tutorial.. "Thanks, but I'll explore the software on my own from now on [x]"?
    - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
      We considered it, but (in this case) the application's use-case is on shared/communual "front-line" machines (hence why we added quick-user-switching), so even though ostensibly a single, human user is logged-in, we honestly don't know who is actually using the machine, and some other user who is just borrowing a machine could easily dismiss a tour/onboarding intended for the actual user who is logged-in. If you think that's bad, when we overhauled some incompetently written code (from a dodgy contractor before I joined) that stored passwords using reversible-encryption (ARGH!) - which was for a "feature" that allowed tenant-admins to reveal their own users' passwords (WTFBBQ!) - and switched to using correctly hashed+salted passwords we had dozens of support calls from angry/frustrated (and yet unsophisticated...) users who said they were no-longer able to login because they never bothered to remember their password, they'd just ask their tenant-admin to tell them their own password (aiaaiaiiaiaiia) and now they couldn't do it anymore. We asked why they couldn't use the forgot-password page or a magic-link to login and they said it doesn't work because they all used fake e-mail addresses for their users (*dies*) (these tenant accounts were all set-up before things were fixed, and accounts with invalid/unverified e-mail addresses were just grandfathered-in). We do also support OIDC (we are our own IdP, as well), so to try to make things easier for our users we'll be adding O365/AzAD soon, with sign-in-with-Google (and maybe sign-in with Facebook... excuse me while I take a cold shower) so at least some users can dispense with having a separate user-account they need to remember details for. ...so things were awful, now they're just bad, and they're getting better - but things could always be worse: Our main competitor is an on-prem VB6 app that pushes data to a "cloud" (i.e. Internet-exposed) SQL Server running off a business/residential IP address with a hardcoded SQL login userID and password shared by everyone (all of their tenants!). ------------------ ...this is what the LoB software world is like. There is so much room for improvement everywhere - but all the competent uni grads join some glamorous FAANGMA company after school (well, I'm guilty of that myself...) - but I wish they'd consider un-sexy LoB software: it pays much better than FAANGMA provided you're competent and know how to negotiate. I think the LoB area gets a bad rep just because it's generally where (for want of a better phrase) less-talented people end-up which brings down the average total-comp. I'm rambling at 3am again, ugh...
hypertele-Xii 5y ago
Yes / No / Default now, ask me again later?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
0x008 5y ago
Are you sure this was not part of the changelog which was publicy available prior to the iOS 15 update?

arthurcolle 5y ago

this lowers engagement metrics, so probably not going to happen

fsckboy 5y ago
the modal dialog that interrupts my flow is forcing engagement, adding a choice doesn't change anything
letitbeirie 5y ago
Depends how long your after-update tutorial is. We ran an A/B test on some 3-pane and 8-pane versions of these at my last job and on the long ones with a "dismiss" button IIRC it took our users something like 3.4 panes to hit it on average. The long ones without the dismiss button got people to view panes 7 and 8 a lot more often but there was a noticeable (albeit small) uptick in users who left the site entirely instead of finishing.

SilverRed 5y ago

Ultimately it doesn't really matter anyway. Unless you are the worlds most wanted criminal and Apple is working with the government to track you down via your turned off iphone. And in that case, you should have done your research to see this anyway. If the average user blows past this message, it has no impact on their life.

crossroadsguy 5y ago
Yup. “Nothing to hide!”
- SilverRed 5y ago
  This makes no sense. If you want to hide, just tap the warning and it gives you the option to turn off the feature. So it works best for everyone. The average person can track their stolen phones now. And people hiding from the government can still turn it off.
egypturnash 5y ago
From the referenced tweet thread about someone finding this out for the first time: In other news I updated my phone to iOS 15 and put it down to charge last night. When I woke up it was hot, and my battery has gone from 100% to 15% since 7:30am. I gotta get off this ecosystem. "My phone's battery life has suddenly become much worse" sure sounds like a major impact to me.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  That has nothing to do with this change. It doesn't even seem like they had their phone turned off for this to be in play anyway. The most likely answer is that they hit a bug in the new update or that they placed their phone off centered on a wireless charger. I'm not sure why the general public should care about rare bugs in day one updates which get patched pretty quick anyway. The turned off pings use an ultra low power mode similar to the airtags which should last months on a "flat" battery.
  - AuthorizedCust 5y ago
    > … placed their phone off centered on a wireless charger. No. The phone got charged. That’s made clear in the quote. Something is draining it post-charge.
- AlphaSite 5y ago
  IIRC after an update your phone starts to reindex everything so for a short while battery is impacted.
jacquesm 5y ago
Ah, a new version of the 'nothing to hide' argument. Thanks.
halikular 5y ago
The Chinese, Russians or Belarusians wouldn't agree with you. There's plenty of people there doing "illegal things". Why should you care? You never know when something can become illegal in the future or the social equivalent of cancelling. You might have made a joke that's not okay in the future, criticized a leader, read a book, played a game, used a VPN...

Jtsummers 5y ago

In this case, there's a bit of extra text that is clearly clickable (has the now standard arrow to the right indicating there's something more). Then there's a dialog box describing the system and two choices: OK, Temporarily Turn Off Finding. The modal dialog could be replaced with a toggle on the same screen as the power off slider in place of that text, and maybe one day it will be. But right now, since the feature is novel, it's probably worth it to have the extra bit of text so people know what the options are that they're selecting between. As far as slowing you down, you're shutting down your phone. If you only want to temporarily turn this off, yes, you're slowed down by about 0.5 seconds But if you are really concerned about this feature you've also had opportunities while using the phone to disable it so that it is permanently off in which case you can just use the power off slider and be done with it.

jychang 5y ago
It's less complaining about the existence of the text, and moreso there's a lack of a way to remind you about reading this later.

fzzzy 5y ago

take a screenshot

fsckboy 5y ago
usually it's a carousel

lolsal 5y ago

You made a decision before you had all the information, but you're so busy you don't want to reconsider your decision after learning new information?

wyattpeak 5y ago
This sounds an awful lot like defences of hundred page EULAs: "So you made a decision not to read it...". No, it was intentionally designed in a way which discourages reading. In the case of this warning, it's possible that it was unintentionally designed in a way which discourages reading, but regardless the fault lies, at least in part, with the design.
- aksss 5y ago
  It's all about timing. My computer and phone are work tools, and I can't stand the things they do at an OS and app level that get in the way of me doing my work, because most often when I do it, I'm in a really big hurry to get it done. A simple dismissible notice of "hey we need to talk later about some stuff" and an easy place to view that queue would go a long way to improving this state of affairs.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    As much as I agree with you, honestly, when are you ever going to get to that queue of messages? Even my email inbox is overflowing with the not-emergency messages, as it has been doing since 2006 or so.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  I think it's two-fold. Part of EULAs are just discouragement. But part of it is that the legal community doesn't do "simple and clear". Due to the weaselish twisting of words in lawsuits everything has to be airtightly formulated and that causes a bunch of legal terms and extremely explicit descriptions which basically makes legal documents unreadable for normal people. Which also benefits the legal community by keeping them in a job, obviously. "Get it checked by legal/my lawyer" rather than just reading what you're signing up to is definitely a thing. I wish the legal system was more focused on clarity and common sense rather than the hard letter of the law.

jbay808 5y ago

Agreed! The worst time to try to tell me about new features is right when I'm firing up my web meeting client to join a meeting that's about to start.

Causality1 5y ago

Seconded. I get so sick of dismissing that idiotic Android warning whenever I turn my VPN on.

rkagerer 5y ago

Same complaint for those annoying "how to use our website or Electron app" tutorials the first time you sign in or after updates. Make help discoverable, don't ram it down our throats, please.

DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
Sorry, but we have to :) We added loads of genuinely useful new features to our SaaS app over the past year, such as the ability to mute notifications, quick user-switching with a PIN, and non-exclusive user role membership, and more - despite mentioning this in our monthly user newsletter we still get peppered with support emails and feature-requests for things that already exist! Additionally our feature-usage data showed that users just weren’t using them. After we added a forced (but only 15 second long) new-feature-tour those support tickets evaporated and user-satisfaction went up. Gotta use tough-love, it seems. —————— Users are weird - we have a bog-standard “user menu” in the top-right corner that’s got the usual visual-affordances and opened by just hovering your name and avatars - with menu items like Logout, Switch User, Dark Mode, etc - but to our surprise the vast majority of our users simply never explore the software.
- dcow 5y ago
  Maybe it could be opt out at the end of the first onboard/tutorial.. "Thanks, but I'll explore the software on my own from now on [x]"?
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    We considered it, but (in this case) the application's use-case is on shared/communual "front-line" machines (hence why we added quick-user-switching), so even though ostensibly a single, human user is logged-in, we honestly don't know who is actually using the machine, and some other user who is just borrowing a machine could easily dismiss a tour/onboarding intended for the actual user who is logged-in. If you think that's bad, when we overhauled some incompetently written code (from a dodgy contractor before I joined) that stored passwords using reversible-encryption (ARGH!) - which was for a "feature" that allowed tenant-admins to reveal their own users' passwords (WTFBBQ!) - and switched to using correctly hashed+salted passwords we had dozens of support calls from angry/frustrated (and yet unsophisticated...) users who said they were no-longer able to login because they never bothered to remember their password, they'd just ask their tenant-admin to tell them their own password (aiaaiaiiaiaiia) and now they couldn't do it anymore. We asked why they couldn't use the forgot-password page or a magic-link to login and they said it doesn't work because they all used fake e-mail addresses for their users (*dies*) (these tenant accounts were all set-up before things were fixed, and accounts with invalid/unverified e-mail addresses were just grandfathered-in). We do also support OIDC (we are our own IdP, as well), so to try to make things easier for our users we'll be adding O365/AzAD soon, with sign-in-with-Google (and maybe sign-in with Facebook... excuse me while I take a cold shower) so at least some users can dispense with having a separate user-account they need to remember details for. ...so things were awful, now they're just bad, and they're getting better - but things could always be worse: Our main competitor is an on-prem VB6 app that pushes data to a "cloud" (i.e. Internet-exposed) SQL Server running off a business/residential IP address with a hardcoded SQL login userID and password shared by everyone (all of their tenants!). ------------------ ...this is what the LoB software world is like. There is so much room for improvement everywhere - but all the competent uni grads join some glamorous FAANGMA company after school (well, I'm guilty of that myself...) - but I wish they'd consider un-sexy LoB software: it pays much better than FAANGMA provided you're competent and know how to negotiate. I think the LoB area gets a bad rep just because it's generally where (for want of a better phrase) less-talented people end-up which brings down the average total-comp. I'm rambling at 3am again, ugh...

hypertele-Xii 5y ago

Yes / No / Default now, ask me again later?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

0x008 5y ago

Are you sure this was not part of the changelog which was publicy available prior to the iOS 15 update?