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I think you're saying this, but wanted to expand on this. I find positivity/negativity of Show HN a useless heuristic. What's important is how constructive the

by mbesto 5y ago

I think you're saying this, but wanted to expand on this. I find positivity/negativity of Show HN a useless heuristic. What's important is how constructive the comment is: - "This is dumb and it'll never work" vs - "I'm you're target audience and I would never use this service because XYZ" Both have negative sentiment but one is FAR more useful and should be encouraged.

jstummbillig 5y ago
Not really. If you are my actual target audience you use my product, because despite my solution being shit, it's still filling a desperate need you have. Then you come to talk to me about all your pain points afterwards.
- afarrell 5y ago
  Sure, but what I’m in the audience you say that you intend to target, but I can see that I wouldn’t use the product? That means you have a problem that you’d want to know about early. A. You aren’t filling a need I have. B. You aren’t showing that you’ll fill a need I have with enough clarity to motivate me to invest a bunch of time into the product. C. Your description of your intended audience is low-specificity enough that I’d waste your sales time talking to them. D. Your description of your intended audience is low-specificity enough that if you give it to half your engineering team, she will spend lots of effort building something misaligned with the other half.
  - jstummbillig 5y ago
    > Sure, but what [if] I’m in the audience you say that you intend to target, but I can see that I wouldn’t use the product? Early on, the entire target audience are customers and potential customers. The later I define as everyone that have not yet been talked to but would make the switch if they learned about the product in its current form. Either you are a customer or a potential customer or you are just not that interesting.
    - afarrell 5y ago
      So you are not interested in the perspective of the following categories: - People who would make the switch if the messaging about the product was improved - People who would make the switch if the product had less friction ? Your loss.
      - jstummbillig 5y ago
        > So you are not interested in the perspective of the following categories: That is correct. The reason is that the number of people in the "I would make a switch if …" camp is large, and most of them are dishonest about their intentions – not deliberately, but dishonest nonetheless. They will never be customers, no matter what you do. Meanwhile you get distracted by random people on the internet instead of focusing on your actual customers or potential customers.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        afarrell 5y ago
        > Meanwhile you get distracted by random people on the internet instead of focusing on your actual customers or potential customers. This is super fair and requires some courage to stick to.
- hihihihi1234 5y ago
  No, if I use your product it's because I'm in your audience. If I'm merely in your target audience then there's no guarantee that your shots will hit the target.
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    Yea the hubris in thinking that if I don't actually use your product then I'm not your target is mind-blowing. That's why it's a target, you're aiming for it, but always a chance you could miss. Have any of y'all seen College Humor's CEO series? I laughed until I cried, I've met so many of these IRL. Anyways the Venmo CEO spoof is what I'm reminded of here. It's not that users don't like the product/feature, it's that they are dumb and/or using it wrong. [1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLl1USudaFHvka8yIKXlAdHduKB7R3H8Ot https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLl1USudaFHvka8yIKXlAd...

by mbesto 5y ago

jstummbillig 5y ago

Not really. If you are my actual target audience you use my product, because despite my solution being shit, it's still filling a desperate need you have. Then you come to talk to me about all your pain points afterwards.

afarrell 5y ago
Sure, but what I’m in the audience you say that you intend to target, but I can see that I wouldn’t use the product? That means you have a problem that you’d want to know about early. A. You aren’t filling a need I have. B. You aren’t showing that you’ll fill a need I have with enough clarity to motivate me to invest a bunch of time into the product. C. Your description of your intended audience is low-specificity enough that I’d waste your sales time talking to them. D. Your description of your intended audience is low-specificity enough that if you give it to half your engineering team, she will spend lots of effort building something misaligned with the other half.
- jstummbillig 5y ago
  > Sure, but what [if] I’m in the audience you say that you intend to target, but I can see that I wouldn’t use the product? Early on, the entire target audience are customers and potential customers. The later I define as everyone that have not yet been talked to but would make the switch if they learned about the product in its current form. Either you are a customer or a potential customer or you are just not that interesting.
  - afarrell 5y ago
    So you are not interested in the perspective of the following categories: - People who would make the switch if the messaging about the product was improved - People who would make the switch if the product had less friction ? Your loss.
    - jstummbillig 5y ago
      > So you are not interested in the perspective of the following categories: That is correct. The reason is that the number of people in the "I would make a switch if …" camp is large, and most of them are dishonest about their intentions – not deliberately, but dishonest nonetheless. They will never be customers, no matter what you do. Meanwhile you get distracted by random people on the internet instead of focusing on your actual customers or potential customers.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - afarrell 5y ago
        > Meanwhile you get distracted by random people on the internet instead of focusing on your actual customers or potential customers. This is super fair and requires some courage to stick to.
hihihihi1234 5y ago
No, if I use your product it's because I'm in your audience. If I'm merely in your target audience then there's no guarantee that your shots will hit the target.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  Yea the hubris in thinking that if I don't actually use your product then I'm not your target is mind-blowing. That's why it's a target, you're aiming for it, but always a chance you could miss. Have any of y'all seen College Humor's CEO series? I laughed until I cried, I've met so many of these IRL. Anyways the Venmo CEO spoof is what I'm reminded of here. It's not that users don't like the product/feature, it's that they are dumb and/or using it wrong. [1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLl1USudaFHvka8yIKXlAdHduKB7R3H8Ot https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLl1USudaFHvka8yIKXlAd...