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Wow that's a lot of misrepresentation. There is a secret court called FISA, which we all know about and therefore isn't secret. NSA collects on everyone but by

Wow that's a lot of misrepresentation. There is a secret court called FISA, which we all know about and therefore isn't secret. NSA collects on everyone but by breaking in, which while not ideal (and might not be legal) is not the same as an information sharing agreement, which is what we are discussing. And of course America still has laws about such things, even if they aren't always followed. Domestic state intel (FBI, DHS, etc.) have 0 privileged access to American companies and their data. In China, the law is literally "the state doesn't even need to ask, it's just given". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_Peopl... Do you honestly not see the difference?

fortuna86 5y ago
Not to mention the Chinese state is using this data provided by "private companies" (in China increasingly there is no such thing) to target their own citizens for harassment, arrest, and worse: https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-targets-xinjiangs-muslims https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-t...
DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
Recall that the NSA was given an unconstitutional[0] general warrant in secret by the FISA court to spy on all Verizon customers.[1] > Do you honestly not see the difference? The difference I see is that there has been extensive, proven, unconstitutional surveillance of Americans by US intelligence agencies, but there is, to date, no evidence that Huawei has spied on Americans. 0. Read about "writs of assistance," a type of general warrant used by the British in colonial America, and which inspired the 4th Amendment's ban on general warrants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-reco...
- fortuna86 5y ago
  > The difference I see is that there has been extensive, proven, unconstitutional surveillance of Americans by US intelligence agencies, but there is, to date, no evidence that Huawei has spied on Americans. I can't tell if you are hopelessly native or arguing with typical cynical flippancy. Huawei is a global tool for Chinese espionage. And while global espionage occurs in the US, they don't compel US companies to help them. In China, there is literal legislation that compels every Chinese company to treat their data as property of the state. Either you don't understand that difference, or you are so hopelessly partisan in the matter you'll argue the cultural revolution was fake news. > Recall that the NSA was given an unconstitutional Yes it was a giant scandal and they have since stopped. Just a story wouldn't even be a story in China, and such actions continue today, legally. > Read about "writs of assistance," a type of general warrant used by the British in colonial America Oh ffs. You never answered my previous question btw, does your work involve Chinese state industry in anyway?
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    > Huawei is a global tool for Chinese espionage. The only problem is there's no evidence of this at all. The entire claim is hypothetical. > Either you don't understand that difference, or you are so hopelessly partisan in the matter you'll argue the cultural revolution was fake news. I just regard the proven, illegal mass surveillance of Americans by the US government as more concerning than the completely hypothetical spying by the Chinese government on Americans. I also think that if the Chinese government were carrying out anything approaching the level of surveillance of Americans that the US government conducts, it would have come out by now. > Yes it was a giant scandal and they have since stopped. We really have no idea if they've stopped, and I rather doubt it. The first time around, in 2005, Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was retroactively legalized by Congress, and the telecom companies that had participated in the illegal domestic spying program were shielded from liability. I'm sure that this time around, the NSA has made some sort of superficial changes to formally avoid some of the illegality they were previously engaged in, but I very much doubt that they've given up on mass surveillance of Americans (not to mention their surveillance of the rest of the world). > Just a story wouldn't even be a story in China, and such actions continue today, legally. I very much admire the rights to privacy and confidentiality set out in the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution. Those are certainly important rights, which people in China do not have. I just wish that the US government would not blatantly violate those rights (and in secret). > You never answered my previous question btw, does your work involve Chinese state industry in anyway? You should know that insinuations that people are shills are a violation of HN's commenting guidelines.
throwaway210222 5y ago
> There is a secret court called FISA, which we all know about and therefore isn't secret. Its not the existence of the court that is a secret. Its the cases it hears and the rulings it makes that are secret. From you. Quoting you: "Do you honestly not see the difference? "
- fortuna86 5y ago
  https://www.fisc.uscourts.gov/public-filings https://www.fisc.uscourts.gov/public-filings

fortuna86 5y ago

Not to mention the Chinese state is using this data provided by "private companies" (in China increasingly there is no such thing) to target their own citizens for harassment, arrest, and worse: https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-targets-xinjiangs-muslims https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-t...

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

Recall that the NSA was given an unconstitutional[0] general warrant in secret by the FISA court to spy on all Verizon customers.[1] > Do you honestly not see the difference? The difference I see is that there has been extensive, proven, unconstitutional surveillance of Americans by US intelligence agencies, but there is, to date, no evidence that Huawei has spied on Americans. 0. Read about "writs of assistance," a type of general warrant used by the British in colonial America, and which inspired the 4th Amendment's ban on general warrants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-reco...

fortuna86 5y ago
> The difference I see is that there has been extensive, proven, unconstitutional surveillance of Americans by US intelligence agencies, but there is, to date, no evidence that Huawei has spied on Americans. I can't tell if you are hopelessly native or arguing with typical cynical flippancy. Huawei is a global tool for Chinese espionage. And while global espionage occurs in the US, they don't compel US companies to help them. In China, there is literal legislation that compels every Chinese company to treat their data as property of the state. Either you don't understand that difference, or you are so hopelessly partisan in the matter you'll argue the cultural revolution was fake news. > Recall that the NSA was given an unconstitutional Yes it was a giant scandal and they have since stopped. Just a story wouldn't even be a story in China, and such actions continue today, legally. > Read about "writs of assistance," a type of general warrant used by the British in colonial America Oh ffs. You never answered my previous question btw, does your work involve Chinese state industry in anyway?
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  > Huawei is a global tool for Chinese espionage. The only problem is there's no evidence of this at all. The entire claim is hypothetical. > Either you don't understand that difference, or you are so hopelessly partisan in the matter you'll argue the cultural revolution was fake news. I just regard the proven, illegal mass surveillance of Americans by the US government as more concerning than the completely hypothetical spying by the Chinese government on Americans. I also think that if the Chinese government were carrying out anything approaching the level of surveillance of Americans that the US government conducts, it would have come out by now. > Yes it was a giant scandal and they have since stopped. We really have no idea if they've stopped, and I rather doubt it. The first time around, in 2005, Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was retroactively legalized by Congress, and the telecom companies that had participated in the illegal domestic spying program were shielded from liability. I'm sure that this time around, the NSA has made some sort of superficial changes to formally avoid some of the illegality they were previously engaged in, but I very much doubt that they've given up on mass surveillance of Americans (not to mention their surveillance of the rest of the world). > Just a story wouldn't even be a story in China, and such actions continue today, legally. I very much admire the rights to privacy and confidentiality set out in the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution. Those are certainly important rights, which people in China do not have. I just wish that the US government would not blatantly violate those rights (and in secret). > You never answered my previous question btw, does your work involve Chinese state industry in anyway? You should know that insinuations that people are shills are a violation of HN's commenting guidelines.

throwaway210222 5y ago

> There is a secret court called FISA, which we all know about and therefore isn't secret. Its not the existence of the court that is a secret. Its the cases it hears and the rulings it makes that are secret. From you. Quoting you: "Do you honestly not see the difference? "

fortuna86 5y ago
https://www.fisc.uscourts.gov/public-filings https://www.fisc.uscourts.gov/public-filings