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There are at least four people close to me who become more entrenched in their anti-vax stance the more this stuff happens. It's so obvious to me how counter-p

by trts 5y ago

There are at least four people close to me who become more entrenched in their anti-vax stance the more this stuff happens. It's so obvious to me how counter-productive these measures are. However I don't suppose increasing vaccination rates are part of the goal of these measures, but just protecting YouTube from having to do moderation or take responsibility for the content on their platform. My mom for example, after many conversations and a great deal of effort on my part to present data and evidence that was free from shaming and judgement, has made two appointments to get vaccinated, and subsequently cancelled them. The second cancellation came after Biden's recent speech blaming unvaccinated people being directly responsible for killing the vaccinated, a nonsensical supposition. This is scary stuff. The moral absolutism that the platforms endorse is creeping into more and more subjective areas, and essentially obliterating any hope of nuance or increased understanding about changing strategies and data.

oauea 5y ago
Sorry to tell you, but your mom is an idiot and she is probably going to die. Sucks, but such is life for those people.
alex504 5y ago
> Biden's recent speech blaming unvaccinated people being directly responsible for killing the vaccinated, a nonsensical supposition. Can you explain how this is nonsensical? There is quite a bit of data showing that those who are unvaccinated are much more likely to spread the disease.
- trts 5y ago
  From the speech itself, "only 1 in every 160,000 fully vaccinated Americans has been hospitalized due to covid" According to the most recent data from the CDC (https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html), 960 out of every 160,000 Americans has been hospitalized due to covid (this is across all people regardless of vaccination status). So there is _at least_ a 99% reduction in the rate of hospitalizations for the fully vaccinated, according to the figures he cited. The message he's sending is that even if you are vaccinated, _you're not safe_. Why is this an effective message for persuading those who might still be convinced? Is the overall outcome better than if our political leadership continued to transparently emphasize vaccine safety and outcomes, rather than scoring points with their political base? You convince more people to become vaccinated by being convincing. When you get more people vaccinated, you save more lives. If someone's position is, that it doesn't matter if the overall outcome is worse, because the bad outcomes are more concentrated in selfish/stupid/red-state people, then I simply disagree with that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jedberg 5y ago
    The vaccinated aren't dying from COVID, they are dying from other things because they can't get an ICU bed. ICUs are full of unvaccinated COVID patients, which means all the people getting all the other normal sicknesses are being locked out of medical care. That's what they mean by "the unvaccinated are killing the vaccinated". People who could have lived if they got ICU care are dying because the ICUs are already full.
    - zasz 5y ago
      My friend's father got pancreatic cancer. His chemotherapy was delayed because the hospital was full of covid patients. Now he's dead. People who get mad about being harangued to take the vaccine are failing to see the whole picture.
  - alex504 5y ago
    Your way at arriving at 99% is quite dubious, as it assumes that from the beginning of the pandemic an equal number of Americans are vaccinated and unvaccinated, and that they are equally exposed to the virus, and that they are in equal risk groups, none of which is true. From what I have read the those who are vaccinated are about 17 times less likely to be hospitalized. Here is a link to an example article showing that statistic: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccines-hospital-cases-rates-unvaccinated https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccin... There is very worrisome data coming out of Israel that shows that the risk of breakthrough infections is likely to rise, as delta becomes more predominant and the efficacy of the vaccines wane. https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vac... Simply put, I don't think the assertion that the unvaccinated are killing the vaccinated is untrue. There is a lot of data that shows that being unvaccinated greatly increases your chance of spreading the virus. The virus is a much bigger part of our lives due to the unvaccinated. Data is increasingly showing that being vaccinated is not a guarantee that you won't wind up in the hospital, have long term symptoms, or die from the virus, especially if you are in an at risk group.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ldbooth 5y ago
Same here. Social Environment is hard to overcome. In the battle of social environment (group think) vs. individual reasoning, environment will win almost every time. This is a known bias among professional investors, and well appreciated there. Vaccine hesitancy follows this pattern, where future is unknown and FUD is trending.
rpmisms 5y ago
Hi, I'm one of those people. I already had Covid before the vaccine, and have been exposed without reinfection since having it. I was neutral on the vaccine at the start, but now I'm only going to get it if I'm forced to. I'm not interested in being bullied into a choice that a) could harm me, and is more likely to given my family history, and b) there's conflicting evidence that it gives me any advantage over the immunity I already have. If you'd like to change my mind, you can start by not threatening my livelihood, not calling me a murderer, and not treating me like I'm subhuman. Yes, I'm a little angry. Wouldn't you?
- scrollaway 5y ago
  Convincing you largely doesn’t matter since you have antibodies already. Your message here sounds a bit like a challenge, “here look at me I’m antivax please convince me” — no, at best that’s an empty request, at worst it’s trollbait. My ex girlfriend is the exact same as you. I called her out on it, she didn’t like that. Do what you like, but IMO what you are doing is dishonest. She did eventually get it, though, for no other reason than: it’s harmless, and it’s easier and cheaper than doing a test before every concert she wanted to go to. She eventually apologized and said she was just being stubborn for the hell of it. Ah well, people change.
  - Jtype 5y ago
    Calling the vaccine "harmless" is dishonest. It may have been mostly harmless for her, but the vaccine has caused death and other issues, most notably myocarditisand pericarditis in young men. For a young man who has had covid with mild or no symptoms, the vaccine could pose a greater danger than not. There is no one simple "right" answer here.
    - rpmisms 5y ago
      And you just described me perfectly. I have valid safety concerns, a healthy immune system, and experienced a total of one day of Covid symptoms.

by trts 5y ago

oauea 5y ago

Sorry to tell you, but your mom is an idiot and she is probably going to die. Sucks, but such is life for those people.

alex504 5y ago

> Biden's recent speech blaming unvaccinated people being directly responsible for killing the vaccinated, a nonsensical supposition. Can you explain how this is nonsensical? There is quite a bit of data showing that those who are unvaccinated are much more likely to spread the disease.

trts 5y ago
From the speech itself, "only 1 in every 160,000 fully vaccinated Americans has been hospitalized due to covid" According to the most recent data from the CDC (https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html), 960 out of every 160,000 Americans has been hospitalized due to covid (this is across all people regardless of vaccination status). So there is _at least_ a 99% reduction in the rate of hospitalizations for the fully vaccinated, according to the figures he cited. The message he's sending is that even if you are vaccinated, _you're not safe_. Why is this an effective message for persuading those who might still be convinced? Is the overall outcome better than if our political leadership continued to transparently emphasize vaccine safety and outcomes, rather than scoring points with their political base? You convince more people to become vaccinated by being convincing. When you get more people vaccinated, you save more lives. If someone's position is, that it doesn't matter if the overall outcome is worse, because the bad outcomes are more concentrated in selfish/stupid/red-state people, then I simply disagree with that.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jedberg 5y ago
  The vaccinated aren't dying from COVID, they are dying from other things because they can't get an ICU bed. ICUs are full of unvaccinated COVID patients, which means all the people getting all the other normal sicknesses are being locked out of medical care. That's what they mean by "the unvaccinated are killing the vaccinated". People who could have lived if they got ICU care are dying because the ICUs are already full.
  - zasz 5y ago
    My friend's father got pancreatic cancer. His chemotherapy was delayed because the hospital was full of covid patients. Now he's dead. People who get mad about being harangued to take the vaccine are failing to see the whole picture.
- alex504 5y ago
  Your way at arriving at 99% is quite dubious, as it assumes that from the beginning of the pandemic an equal number of Americans are vaccinated and unvaccinated, and that they are equally exposed to the virus, and that they are in equal risk groups, none of which is true. From what I have read the those who are vaccinated are about 17 times less likely to be hospitalized. Here is a link to an example article showing that statistic: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccines-hospital-cases-rates-unvaccinated https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccin... There is very worrisome data coming out of Israel that shows that the risk of breakthrough infections is likely to rise, as delta becomes more predominant and the efficacy of the vaccines wane. https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vac... Simply put, I don't think the assertion that the unvaccinated are killing the vaccinated is untrue. There is a lot of data that shows that being unvaccinated greatly increases your chance of spreading the virus. The virus is a much bigger part of our lives due to the unvaccinated. Data is increasingly showing that being vaccinated is not a guarantee that you won't wind up in the hospital, have long term symptoms, or die from the virus, especially if you are in an at risk group.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ldbooth 5y ago

Same here. Social Environment is hard to overcome. In the battle of social environment (group think) vs. individual reasoning, environment will win almost every time. This is a known bias among professional investors, and well appreciated there. Vaccine hesitancy follows this pattern, where future is unknown and FUD is trending.

rpmisms 5y ago

Hi, I'm one of those people. I already had Covid before the vaccine, and have been exposed without reinfection since having it. I was neutral on the vaccine at the start, but now I'm only going to get it if I'm forced to. I'm not interested in being bullied into a choice that a) could harm me, and is more likely to given my family history, and b) there's conflicting evidence that it gives me any advantage over the immunity I already have. If you'd like to change my mind, you can start by not threatening my livelihood, not calling me a murderer, and not treating me like I'm subhuman. Yes, I'm a little angry. Wouldn't you?

scrollaway 5y ago
Convincing you largely doesn’t matter since you have antibodies already. Your message here sounds a bit like a challenge, “here look at me I’m antivax please convince me” — no, at best that’s an empty request, at worst it’s trollbait. My ex girlfriend is the exact same as you. I called her out on it, she didn’t like that. Do what you like, but IMO what you are doing is dishonest. She did eventually get it, though, for no other reason than: it’s harmless, and it’s easier and cheaper than doing a test before every concert she wanted to go to. She eventually apologized and said she was just being stubborn for the hell of it. Ah well, people change.
- Jtype 5y ago
  Calling the vaccine "harmless" is dishonest. It may have been mostly harmless for her, but the vaccine has caused death and other issues, most notably myocarditisand pericarditis in young men. For a young man who has had covid with mild or no symptoms, the vaccine could pose a greater danger than not. There is no one simple "right" answer here.
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    And you just described me perfectly. I have valid safety concerns, a healthy immune system, and experienced a total of one day of Covid symptoms.