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> Corporations are not humans (regardless of the "corporate personhood" doctrine) and thus should not be entitled to the full rights of humans. True, but corpo

> Corporations are not humans (regardless of the "corporate personhood" doctrine) and thus should not be entitled to the full rights of humans. True, but corporations are just connections of people with shared goals. Should groups of people lose "fundamental" rights when they organize? > Fair-weather friends indeed. Yes, I fully support the rights of platforms to do stupid things. Use rumble or whatever if you want. I'll mock those platforms, but I don't think the government should ban them. > Semi-monopolies like Youtube are especially not entitled to use their dominance to manipulate public opinion, given how easily it can be abused. So, you think that we should circumstantially limit constitutionally protected rights, for the greater good? Fair weather friends indeed.

stale2002 5y ago
> So, you think that we should circumstantially limit constitutionally protected rights According to your logic, you should think that common carrier laws should be repealed entirely. Think, the telephone company blocking certain political groups, or the only water company in town, refusing to deliver water to certain people who say things that they don't like. It is pretty similar, philosophically. Common carrier laws are pretty uncontroversial. So it feels weird for you to be making these types of arguments, when it is already established, that there are major counter examples. So you'd have to either recognize the contradiction, or admit that your position is at odds with other established, and uncontroversial laws.
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  I didn't take any particular position, I pointed out the incongruence in the one they espoused. I'm admittedly mixed on common carrier laws, I think that they are "impure" in a sense, but I also think the benefits are greater than the costs, even taking into account the potential theoretical erosion of our rights. I absolutely agree that there are major counterexamples, and I'm overall fine with that, but I'll also freely admit that I'm not a free speech absolutist of any form.
ThrowawayR2 5y ago
> "So, you think that we should circumstantially limit constitutionally protected rights, for the greater good?" Why, yes, I do. Ask yourself: what was the various civil rights victories and legislation for minorities, women, LGBTQ other than saying "We are circumscribing your rights, including ones formerly interpreted as constitutionally protected, so that these protected classes may be treated equally, for the greater good"? Sounds like you'd argue against that.
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  I mean, yes. I think that's fine. But that goes in both directions: if you're willing to sacrifice the speech of some for the speech of others, clearly either you aren't a free speech maximalist, or there is some inherent contradiction in what free speech is. Because if my free speech requires limiting yours, well...how do we decide whose speech is more important?
  - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
    I think a modern formulation of freedom of speech, like Article 19 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, is clearer about what freedom of speech is: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers." Note that this formulation doesn't have to descend into some sort of free speech maximalist apocalypse; spam is unprotected because it's not something anyone wants to receive, incitements to imminent violence are violations of other human rights and laws, etc. so moderation is still possible. There is a difference between interfering with parties who are mutually voluntarily communicating and helping parties not receive communications they voluntarily have decided that they don't want to receive. (I was about to say that free speech maximalists are a myth but I do recall seeing at least one person on HN advocate such a view.) And I agree there's a tension between the rights of different individuals/entities but the same tension exists for other civil and human rights. The compromise used for other civil rights seems reasonable here: everyone should be treated evenhandedly and impartially and, the larger the corporation/organization, the greater the responsibility to do so.

stale2002 5y ago

> So, you think that we should circumstantially limit constitutionally protected rights According to your logic, you should think that common carrier laws should be repealed entirely. Think, the telephone company blocking certain political groups, or the only water company in town, refusing to deliver water to certain people who say things that they don't like. It is pretty similar, philosophically. Common carrier laws are pretty uncontroversial. So it feels weird for you to be making these types of arguments, when it is already established, that there are major counter examples. So you'd have to either recognize the contradiction, or admit that your position is at odds with other established, and uncontroversial laws.

joshuamorton 5y ago
I didn't take any particular position, I pointed out the incongruence in the one they espoused. I'm admittedly mixed on common carrier laws, I think that they are "impure" in a sense, but I also think the benefits are greater than the costs, even taking into account the potential theoretical erosion of our rights. I absolutely agree that there are major counterexamples, and I'm overall fine with that, but I'll also freely admit that I'm not a free speech absolutist of any form.

ThrowawayR2 5y ago

> "So, you think that we should circumstantially limit constitutionally protected rights, for the greater good?" Why, yes, I do. Ask yourself: what was the various civil rights victories and legislation for minorities, women, LGBTQ other than saying "We are circumscribing your rights, including ones formerly interpreted as constitutionally protected, so that these protected classes may be treated equally, for the greater good"? Sounds like you'd argue against that.

joshuamorton 5y ago
I mean, yes. I think that's fine. But that goes in both directions: if you're willing to sacrifice the speech of some for the speech of others, clearly either you aren't a free speech maximalist, or there is some inherent contradiction in what free speech is. Because if my free speech requires limiting yours, well...how do we decide whose speech is more important?
- ThrowawayR2 5y ago
  I think a modern formulation of freedom of speech, like Article 19 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, is clearer about what freedom of speech is: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers." Note that this formulation doesn't have to descend into some sort of free speech maximalist apocalypse; spam is unprotected because it's not something anyone wants to receive, incitements to imminent violence are violations of other human rights and laws, etc. so moderation is still possible. There is a difference between interfering with parties who are mutually voluntarily communicating and helping parties not receive communications they voluntarily have decided that they don't want to receive. (I was about to say that free speech maximalists are a myth but I do recall seeing at least one person on HN advocate such a view.) And I agree there's a tension between the rights of different individuals/entities but the same tension exists for other civil and human rights. The compromise used for other civil rights seems reasonable here: everyone should be treated evenhandedly and impartially and, the larger the corporation/organization, the greater the responsibility to do so.