4 ms·

Arguably; drafts do look like that. I mean, I can't say how many people scream while being dragged off to fight in a war, but the concept is very similar. Ther

by 015a 5y ago

Arguably; drafts do look like that. I mean, I can't say how many people scream while being dragged off to fight in a war, but the concept is very similar. There hasn't been a draft in most of our lifetimes. There also hasn't been a virus as deadly as this one. So, maybe the better frame of reference would be: nationally mandatory vaccinations can be alright and make sense, under the same argument that allows the draft to be alright and make sense; we just need some quantitative framework under which it can be instituted. For example: if covid becomes endemic (which seems to be likely), and we institute mandatory vaccinations for it during this phase of the pandemic, pre-endemic; the argument for mandatory vaccinations may make sense today, given the level of infections and deaths that are occurring, but will "mandatory boosters" make sense in three years when the level of deaths is (hopefully) far lower and more in-line with the seasonal flu? The critical difference between a draft and mandatory vaccinations is: most people understand the general need for, but also hate the implementation of, the draft. Its a duty; its not desirable. In a democracy, this, alongside the massive cost and logistics effort of maintaining such a large army, acts as a very natural counter-balance to the impetus for people in power to abuse it. Vaccines do not have such a counterbalance. They're very cheap per-shot, relative to the draft. The logistics are already in place and have successfully operated at scale. And, most concerning; many people want mandatory vaccination. No one should want it. Its an ugly necessity, but far too many people don't see the ugliness. If you're reading this and need help to see the ugliness: Our government experiences corruption, like any government. Moderna's stock value has gone up by ~2,000% since the beginning of the pandemic. This, alone, is an obscenely powerful bias for people in key positions of power to push for more vaccination, irrespective of their need or efficacy; for example, maybe you assemble a panel of experts, who tell you vaccine boosters aren't necessary, then overrule the panel and say they're necessary anyway [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/24/world/covid-boosters-vaccine-cdc-director.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/24/world/covid-boosters-vacc...

eek430 5y ago
> as deadly as this one https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality On what planet is a 1.6% CFR "deadly"? On what planet are we "at war" with a virus? This language you are using is a perfect demonstration of the danger of propaganda. You're dehumanizing your fellow man and justifying it after the fact with more propaganda.
LudvigVanHassen 5y ago
This last point and the new york times article are a great example of this corruption and corporate interests. The bastards at the helm CANNOT be trusted.
- 015a 5y ago
  It is, if nothing else, hopefully proof to anyone with eyes that the Left is just as susceptible as the Right to turning something which should mostly be a medical decision, into a political one. Let alone the possibility that it could be corruption (which I feel is unlikely, but not impossible). Much ire was thrown at Trump during his Presidency for filling many government positions with Yes-men who would blindly fall in line with the party. Now, we have Biden's White House ranting non-stop about Boosters, a significant amount of concern that the Federal government, as a whole, has no unified message on whether boosters are even necessary and who they're necessary for, a CDC panel saying they're not necessary, and the head of the CDC falling in line with the Biden White House against medical advice. Its awfully similar to what Trump was lambasted for. Ultimately the position I fall back on is: These decisions are medical decisions. Politics (and, it follows, corruption) need to be removed. When you take issues to the national level, politics and corruption will ABSOLUTELY, undoubtedly, in 100% of instances, be involved, no matter how well-intentioned the cause is. Thus, these issues need to stay out of the federal government, and be handled among the smallest number of people possible. Vaccination, for me and my children, may be something my doctor recommends; it may be something my school system requires; maybe even my workplace and the state has a say. But the discussion inevitably reaches a lower and lower quality as more voices and mandates and requirements are added. The counter-argument to this is: Vaccination is only strongly effective if we reach some level of herd immunity, so we need federal mandates. Unfortunately, that's irrelevant; we live in a democracy, and if you push against the other side too hard, they push back, your mandate gets repealed, and your yes-men lose their re-election. Freedom Isn't Free.
stirlo 5y ago
> And, most concerning; many people want mandatory vaccination. No one should want it. The alternative is overflowing hospitals, masks forever and the restrictions on movement. I 100% want those who force this on society to stopped. The last 18 months have already been tremendously ugly. A vaccine mandate is far less so.
- 015a 5y ago
  You're presenting a false dichotomy [1]; attempting to simplify an incredibly complex and nuanced situation into either A or B. You need to understand: the answer is neither A nor B. First, overflowing hospitals is a major public health problem. The exact cause of this issue is more opaque. Certainly, higher vaccination rates could reasonably reduce the number of people admitted to hospitals, and thus reduce strain on the healthcare system. I assert this as reasonable, though not guaranteed, given there is still some significant fog-of-war on whether COVID is out-evolving the Pfizer vaccine, let alone J&J, too quickly. Recent data out of Israel is cause for concern; ~79% fully vaccinated population, with very high new-case rates, and ~60% of hospitalizations are fully vaccinated [2]. They're having the opposite problem the US is having; we need to figure out why. Its not unreasonable to say they're ahead of a curve that is on its way to the US. Additionally, there is significant evidence that natural immunity is capable of producing a more robust, stronger, and longer-lasting immune reaction than any of the current vaccines [3]. Unfortunately, mandatory vaccinations or vaccine passports, as they have been presented in the United States, do not offer any onboarding ramp for people to present previous infection, or even positive presence of antibodies, as a means of replacement for the vaccine. There is strong evidence that infection, plus a vaccine, exhibits some of the highest antibody volumes of any patients, far exceeding vaccine or infection alone [4]. But, does the order matter? What about vaccine, then infection; a possibility that is scary to consider, but an unfortunate reality of these current vaccines. One hot topic of research right now is in antibody-dependent enhancement; in short, when previous infection causes an antibody to be built, the virus mutates, reinfection with the mutation occurs, and the mutated virus can now leverage the antibodies used against its predecessor to infiltrate cells faster. Unfortunately, the research is ongoing and mixed [5,6]; but it may eventually be discovered that vaccination with the current kinds of vaccines, built against SARS-CoV-2 Original, contribute some level of antibody-dependent enhancement for infections with the inevitable upcoming Omega Variant, and thus recipients of vaccines, and possibly even those with natural immunity today, could experience higher mortality rates than those whose immune systems have never seen the virus. Which is all to say: Why are hospitals overflowing? Maybe its because of the unvaccinated (this appears to be the case in the US; it is not the case in some other countries). Definitely its because: The US is facing a critical healthcare provider personnel shortage right now [7]. Many hospitals have beds and rooms, physically; what they don't have are people to care for the patients in them. In other words; if the strongest argument for mass vaccination is to protect the public health system of the United States; there is compelling evidence to suggest that the vaccines we have today are not good enough to accomplish this, but are nonetheless being used as a band-aid by the Biden Administration on top of the bullet wound of the healthcare system's long-term rot, resulting from overwork and underpay. Vaccines are easy; fixing the bigger problems at the core of all hospitals, insurance companies, and provider-patient relationships is much, much harder, and its a task the administration seems totally disinterested from taking on. Ultimately, the best way to end COVID is to end COVID; we can't let it out-mutate the vaccines we have. The mRNA vaccines we have today do a reasonably effective job of reaching this goal; but unfortunately, its not good enough. Even if the United States and other western-aligned first world nations can reach 100% full vaccination (which will not happen; at least 5% of the US population is immunocompromised [8]); COVID spreads too quickly, and we are not producing vaccines fast enough to innoculate non-first-world nations [9]. We are a global society. The next COVID evolution won't come from the US; it'll come from somewhere with far, far lower vaccination rates, then spread to the US. If we're lucky, the vaccines will work against it; maybe with another booster. But, that's no guarantee, and when (not if) that evolution happens that escapes the vaccine, we'll be back to square 1. Oh, and the global vaccination situation is even worse than those numbers suggest, because there's unfortunate compelling evidence that the Chinese Sinovac vaccine is, to put it mildly, not as efficacious as the mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna [10], and China has been doing some very serious vaccine diplomacy. So, what's the end-game? The alternative you suggest? Masks and Travel Restrictions forever? Ultimately, these are not realities imposed upon us by COVID; they're realities imposed upon us by our Government and Society. Reasonable ones! But, COVID isn't going anywhere. It is absolutely endemic. The decision before us isn't "how are we going to get rid of COVID"; its, how are we going to structure our lives differently knowing its always going to be out there. I don't know what the right answer is, but I don't believe broad, long-term mask mandates and travel restrictions are socioeconomically sustainable. Maybe the "right" answer here has less to do with public physical health, and more to do with psychology; accepting that COVID adds a new scary risk to our world, but still stepping out the door every day to face it. [1] https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white [2] https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vac... [3] https://www.aier.org/article/stronger-more-robust-natural-immunity-thwarts-any-case-for-vaccine-passports/ https://www.aier.org/article/stronger-more-robust-natural-im... [4] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-response-vaccination-after-covid-19 https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-... [5] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34579572/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34579572/ [6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7943455/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7943455/ [7] https://www.npr.org/2021/08/10/1026577164/hospitals-face-a-shortage-of-nurses-as-covid-cases-soar https://www.npr.org/2021/08/10/1026577164/hospitals-face-a-s... [8] https://thebulletin.org/2008/01/the-growing-number-of-immunocompromised/ https://thebulletin.org/2008/01/the-growing-number-of-immuno... [9] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations [10] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/are-chinas-vaccines-effective-4-countries-tell-cautionary-tales/ar-AALmoUD https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/are-chinas-vaccines-eff...

by 015a 5y ago

eek430 5y ago

> as deadly as this one https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality On what planet is a 1.6% CFR "deadly"? On what planet are we "at war" with a virus? This language you are using is a perfect demonstration of the danger of propaganda. You're dehumanizing your fellow man and justifying it after the fact with more propaganda.

LudvigVanHassen 5y ago

This last point and the new york times article are a great example of this corruption and corporate interests. The bastards at the helm CANNOT be trusted.

015a 5y ago
It is, if nothing else, hopefully proof to anyone with eyes that the Left is just as susceptible as the Right to turning something which should mostly be a medical decision, into a political one. Let alone the possibility that it could be corruption (which I feel is unlikely, but not impossible). Much ire was thrown at Trump during his Presidency for filling many government positions with Yes-men who would blindly fall in line with the party. Now, we have Biden's White House ranting non-stop about Boosters, a significant amount of concern that the Federal government, as a whole, has no unified message on whether boosters are even necessary and who they're necessary for, a CDC panel saying they're not necessary, and the head of the CDC falling in line with the Biden White House against medical advice. Its awfully similar to what Trump was lambasted for. Ultimately the position I fall back on is: These decisions are medical decisions. Politics (and, it follows, corruption) need to be removed. When you take issues to the national level, politics and corruption will ABSOLUTELY, undoubtedly, in 100% of instances, be involved, no matter how well-intentioned the cause is. Thus, these issues need to stay out of the federal government, and be handled among the smallest number of people possible. Vaccination, for me and my children, may be something my doctor recommends; it may be something my school system requires; maybe even my workplace and the state has a say. But the discussion inevitably reaches a lower and lower quality as more voices and mandates and requirements are added. The counter-argument to this is: Vaccination is only strongly effective if we reach some level of herd immunity, so we need federal mandates. Unfortunately, that's irrelevant; we live in a democracy, and if you push against the other side too hard, they push back, your mandate gets repealed, and your yes-men lose their re-election. Freedom Isn't Free.

stirlo 5y ago

> And, most concerning; many people want mandatory vaccination. No one should want it. The alternative is overflowing hospitals, masks forever and the restrictions on movement. I 100% want those who force this on society to stopped. The last 18 months have already been tremendously ugly. A vaccine mandate is far less so.

015a 5y ago
You're presenting a false dichotomy [1]; attempting to simplify an incredibly complex and nuanced situation into either A or B. You need to understand: the answer is neither A nor B. First, overflowing hospitals is a major public health problem. The exact cause of this issue is more opaque. Certainly, higher vaccination rates could reasonably reduce the number of people admitted to hospitals, and thus reduce strain on the healthcare system. I assert this as reasonable, though not guaranteed, given there is still some significant fog-of-war on whether COVID is out-evolving the Pfizer vaccine, let alone J&J, too quickly. Recent data out of Israel is cause for concern; ~79% fully vaccinated population, with very high new-case rates, and ~60% of hospitalizations are fully vaccinated [2]. They're having the opposite problem the US is having; we need to figure out why. Its not unreasonable to say they're ahead of a curve that is on its way to the US. Additionally, there is significant evidence that natural immunity is capable of producing a more robust, stronger, and longer-lasting immune reaction than any of the current vaccines [3]. Unfortunately, mandatory vaccinations or vaccine passports, as they have been presented in the United States, do not offer any onboarding ramp for people to present previous infection, or even positive presence of antibodies, as a means of replacement for the vaccine. There is strong evidence that infection, plus a vaccine, exhibits some of the highest antibody volumes of any patients, far exceeding vaccine or infection alone [4]. But, does the order matter? What about vaccine, then infection; a possibility that is scary to consider, but an unfortunate reality of these current vaccines. One hot topic of research right now is in antibody-dependent enhancement; in short, when previous infection causes an antibody to be built, the virus mutates, reinfection with the mutation occurs, and the mutated virus can now leverage the antibodies used against its predecessor to infiltrate cells faster. Unfortunately, the research is ongoing and mixed [5,6]; but it may eventually be discovered that vaccination with the current kinds of vaccines, built against SARS-CoV-2 Original, contribute some level of antibody-dependent enhancement for infections with the inevitable upcoming Omega Variant, and thus recipients of vaccines, and possibly even those with natural immunity today, could experience higher mortality rates than those whose immune systems have never seen the virus. Which is all to say: Why are hospitals overflowing? Maybe its because of the unvaccinated (this appears to be the case in the US; it is not the case in some other countries). Definitely its because: The US is facing a critical healthcare provider personnel shortage right now [7]. Many hospitals have beds and rooms, physically; what they don't have are people to care for the patients in them. In other words; if the strongest argument for mass vaccination is to protect the public health system of the United States; there is compelling evidence to suggest that the vaccines we have today are not good enough to accomplish this, but are nonetheless being used as a band-aid by the Biden Administration on top of the bullet wound of the healthcare system's long-term rot, resulting from overwork and underpay. Vaccines are easy; fixing the bigger problems at the core of all hospitals, insurance companies, and provider-patient relationships is much, much harder, and its a task the administration seems totally disinterested from taking on. Ultimately, the best way to end COVID is to end COVID; we can't let it out-mutate the vaccines we have. The mRNA vaccines we have today do a reasonably effective job of reaching this goal; but unfortunately, its not good enough. Even if the United States and other western-aligned first world nations can reach 100% full vaccination (which will not happen; at least 5% of the US population is immunocompromised [8]); COVID spreads too quickly, and we are not producing vaccines fast enough to innoculate non-first-world nations [9]. We are a global society. The next COVID evolution won't come from the US; it'll come from somewhere with far, far lower vaccination rates, then spread to the US. If we're lucky, the vaccines will work against it; maybe with another booster. But, that's no guarantee, and when (not if) that evolution happens that escapes the vaccine, we'll be back to square 1. Oh, and the global vaccination situation is even worse than those numbers suggest, because there's unfortunate compelling evidence that the Chinese Sinovac vaccine is, to put it mildly, not as efficacious as the mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna [10], and China has been doing some very serious vaccine diplomacy. So, what's the end-game? The alternative you suggest? Masks and Travel Restrictions forever? Ultimately, these are not realities imposed upon us by COVID; they're realities imposed upon us by our Government and Society. Reasonable ones! But, COVID isn't going anywhere. It is absolutely endemic. The decision before us isn't "how are we going to get rid of COVID"; its, how are we going to structure our lives differently knowing its always going to be out there. I don't know what the right answer is, but I don't believe broad, long-term mask mandates and travel restrictions are socioeconomically sustainable. Maybe the "right" answer here has less to do with public physical health, and more to do with psychology; accepting that COVID adds a new scary risk to our world, but still stepping out the door every day to face it. [1] https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white [2] https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vac... [3] https://www.aier.org/article/stronger-more-robust-natural-immunity-thwarts-any-case-for-vaccine-passports/ https://www.aier.org/article/stronger-more-robust-natural-im... [4] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-response-vaccination-after-covid-19 https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-... [5] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34579572/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34579572/ [6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7943455/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7943455/ [7] https://www.npr.org/2021/08/10/1026577164/hospitals-face-a-shortage-of-nurses-as-covid-cases-soar https://www.npr.org/2021/08/10/1026577164/hospitals-face-a-s... [8] https://thebulletin.org/2008/01/the-growing-number-of-immunocompromised/ https://thebulletin.org/2008/01/the-growing-number-of-immuno... [9] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations [10] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/are-chinas-vaccines-effective-4-countries-tell-cautionary-tales/ar-AALmoUD https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/are-chinas-vaccines-eff...