4 ms·

yet we force our children to be vaccinated in school in order to be part of society. we also force other things that impinge on personal liberty, such as weari

by unsui 5y ago

yet we force our children to be vaccinated in school in order to be part of society. we also force other things that impinge on personal liberty, such as wearing seatbelts, getting car (and medical) insurance, etc. I can see the argument that this is a slippery slope, such as "well, the common good dictates that I get this neuro implant to ward off the 2157 neurovirus", and unfortunately, the short answer is "it depends on the context". Right now, vaccine holdouts are really screwing things up for us who want to return to some form of normality. as with war measures or other emergency measures, personal liberty has historically been set aside for the common good. I don't see this going away, nor should it. The conversation should be how to draw the right balance, so that, when the emergency is over, we return to some modicum of personal liberty, while still preserving the common good. In some cases, it means that the mandate becomes the accepted practice (e.g., child vaccinations). In others, we would hope, personal liberty returns (e.g., habeas corpus). TL;DR: it is contextual, rather than dogmatic and a-priori

hackinthebochs 5y ago
>Right now, vaccine holdouts are really screwing things up for us who want to return to some form of normality. Is this even true anymore? Delta is highly contagious and the vaccines are leaky, thus it is not obvious that the effective R0 of Delta will be less than one assuming a fully vaccinated population. We already know that vaccinated people can still be infected, and not at minuscule rates, and once infected they are similarly contagious as an unvaccinated person. If Delta is endemic now, blaming the unvaccinated for the ongoing pandemic is just false.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  It’s not true, because I know people with children under 5 who are prepared to socially isolate until their kids are able to get the vaccine because they believe you have a >50% chance of hospitalization due to COVID. Some people are playing the long game and blaming vaccine holdouts, which in cases like this is irrational (but who said people are rational).
stolenmerch 5y ago
> yet we force our children to be vaccinated in school in order to be part of society. It's important to note that this isn't some worldwide, universal practice. Many countries, such as the UK, do not have vaccine mandates to enter their school system. There are also different rules in different U.S. states. It's also quite unfair to compare vaccines that have 1-3 doses to essentially vaccinate children for a lifetime against horrible and deadly diseases to a vaccine that needs endless boosters for a disease which presents very little risk for children or immune adults. My child isn't required to get an annual flu shot to go to school and I don't see how this is much different. So I agree it is contextual and I think this is the proper context.
- LudvigVanHassen 5y ago
  Also, all of these vaccines that ARE mandated for children against said horrible and deadly diseases were tested for YEARS prior to becoming mandatory to ensure that they are safe for children. It is impossible to have that dataset for the COVID vaccines. The time has not elapsed yet. The trials have not been done. They are rushing to approve them in a sense of emergency, which I do understand. I do also acknowledge that the data so far is promising! I certainly hope that the vaccines are safe for children and that we can use these going forward in the future. But I want the process followed; the full 3-5 year trial test before these are mandated. The emergency push for this towards children would be different if COVID was killing the same % of children that it kills the very old. But the data is overwhelming clear the world over: children do not die from COVID; well over 99% have no deaths or long term issues.
LudvigVanHassen 5y ago
>Right now, vaccine holdouts are really screwing things up for us who want to return to some form of normality. I think the challenge here is the media and the government are heavily promoting the MESSAGE that vaccine holdouts are screwing things up for everyone. But the truth is that they are not. The unvaccinated are unvaccinated at their own choice. If they die from not being vaccinated, that's their problem. I'm open to having triage laws at a hospital where, if they are overwhelmed with the unvaccinated, they can be sidelined for others coming in with other needs. The unvaccinated do have this strain on the medical system and it cannot be ignored. As many have said, the DEATHS from Delta and most of the hospitalized CASES from Delta are indeed among the unvaccinated. But I think the right to chose is worth the cost. Delta is also spreading around among the vaccinated. It is indeed true that Delta cases for the vaccinated are far more mild. Almost none result in hospitalization, never mind in death. But Delta is endemic, vaccinated or not. For the first year of this virus, there NEVER was the assumption we could eradicate it entirely. It's a Coronavirus like the common cold; it WILL be endemic. There never was any other outcome once it passed into the millions of cases world wide. The left's fantasy of authoritarian control and creating a perfect world from harm is simply unobtainable. The common good is to learn to deal with this, as we do the flu. Reopen, learn, make the choices you think are best and deal with the consequences. This nanny state of lockdown to try to achieve the impossible is stupid, and turning tyrannical in it's pursuit of a utopia that cannot be had.
goostavos 5y ago
>yet we force our children to be vaccinated in school in order to be part of society. Here's what's different: mandating it for everything else. It seems disingenuous to treat the documentation/mandate requirements between countries, public schools, and your local pub as equivalent. >e also force other things that impinge on personal liberty, such as wearing seatbelts, getting car (and medical) insurance, etc. "we do it for these other things" is something that sounds like an argument, but actually isn't. Does it make sense for this scenario, with this virus, at this point into the pandemic, and with these tradeoffs? If anything, saying "you've lost liberty elsewhere" is an argument for fighting tooth and nail for the bits that remain. >the short answer is "it depends on the context". I think you nailed the crux of the problem and the disconnect between people. "The context" is wildly different depending on your disposition. For a large swath of the population, the 'context' is that COVID is not an existential threat which warrants the suspension of liberty. For others, the 'context' is that COVID represents such a threat to public health that personal liberty can be traded away. We're doomed to fight, because each side finds the other reprehensible, and one side is trying to take away the liberty of the other. >Right now, vaccine holdouts are really screwing things up for us who want to return to some form of normality. This is categorically false. The unvaxxed aren't the ones preventing you from doing anything. They don't have the power to do so! The government is holding us all hostage and continuously shifting the goal post. Right now, it has been moved to the unvaxxed. Just as before it was about the curve, then controlling case numbers, then acquiring the vax, then reaching minimum vax numbers, now blaming all woes on those unvaxxed. If we look at Australia, maybe we can predict where the post will move next. >The conversation should be how to draw the right balance, so that, when the emergency is over, we return to some modicum of personal liberty, while still preserving the common good. For it to actually be a conversation, you have to accept that there are people with a different world view from you, and that they're not wrong, nor an enemy which is holding society hostage. Presumably everyone on this site can read a graph. We looked at the same data and came to different conclusions.
- unsui 5y ago
  replying to this comment, even though actually applies to multiple replies to my parent comment. > This is categorically false. The unvaxxed aren't the ones preventing you from doing anything. They don't have the power to do so! That itself is categorically false. unvaxxed folks provide a tremendous wealth of externalities, such as undue burden on the healthcare system, behavioral and legal changes that require masking due to lack of critical mass in vaccinations, etc. But, to get to the crux of your arguments: you do have the personal liberty to not vaccinate. That is not being taken away from you. However, you do not have the privilege of making it a protected class (which is really what you are talking about). If you choose not to be vaccinated, you can: - home school your children - self-employ and self-insure - self-medicate and avoid the healthcare system entirely etc.. Now, none of this is practical in reality, but never at any point is your choice to remain unvaccinated impinged upon. You simply don't have as many career or social options as you would like, equivalent to being unvaccinated as a protected class. And that is a horrendous idea (i.e., being a protected class). You can't have it both way... personal liberty often comes as great personal cost. If you truly walk the walk, then be prepared to pay the cost.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
You're talking about rights versus privileges. It's a privilege to drive, not a right, thus it's reasonable that there are conditions around that. You do have a right to an education but, at least in my state, you can completely exempt your child from vaccines and still send them to public school. But even if you don't, you have the right to educate your child in other ways (i.e. home school).

by unsui 5y ago

hackinthebochs 5y ago

>Right now, vaccine holdouts are really screwing things up for us who want to return to some form of normality. Is this even true anymore? Delta is highly contagious and the vaccines are leaky, thus it is not obvious that the effective R0 of Delta will be less than one assuming a fully vaccinated population. We already know that vaccinated people can still be infected, and not at minuscule rates, and once infected they are similarly contagious as an unvaccinated person. If Delta is endemic now, blaming the unvaccinated for the ongoing pandemic is just false.

mensetmanusman 5y ago
It’s not true, because I know people with children under 5 who are prepared to socially isolate until their kids are able to get the vaccine because they believe you have a >50% chance of hospitalization due to COVID. Some people are playing the long game and blaming vaccine holdouts, which in cases like this is irrational (but who said people are rational).

stolenmerch 5y ago

> yet we force our children to be vaccinated in school in order to be part of society. It's important to note that this isn't some worldwide, universal practice. Many countries, such as the UK, do not have vaccine mandates to enter their school system. There are also different rules in different U.S. states. It's also quite unfair to compare vaccines that have 1-3 doses to essentially vaccinate children for a lifetime against horrible and deadly diseases to a vaccine that needs endless boosters for a disease which presents very little risk for children or immune adults. My child isn't required to get an annual flu shot to go to school and I don't see how this is much different. So I agree it is contextual and I think this is the proper context.

LudvigVanHassen 5y ago
Also, all of these vaccines that ARE mandated for children against said horrible and deadly diseases were tested for YEARS prior to becoming mandatory to ensure that they are safe for children. It is impossible to have that dataset for the COVID vaccines. The time has not elapsed yet. The trials have not been done. They are rushing to approve them in a sense of emergency, which I do understand. I do also acknowledge that the data so far is promising! I certainly hope that the vaccines are safe for children and that we can use these going forward in the future. But I want the process followed; the full 3-5 year trial test before these are mandated. The emergency push for this towards children would be different if COVID was killing the same % of children that it kills the very old. But the data is overwhelming clear the world over: children do not die from COVID; well over 99% have no deaths or long term issues.

LudvigVanHassen 5y ago

>Right now, vaccine holdouts are really screwing things up for us who want to return to some form of normality. I think the challenge here is the media and the government are heavily promoting the MESSAGE that vaccine holdouts are screwing things up for everyone. But the truth is that they are not. The unvaccinated are unvaccinated at their own choice. If they die from not being vaccinated, that's their problem. I'm open to having triage laws at a hospital where, if they are overwhelmed with the unvaccinated, they can be sidelined for others coming in with other needs. The unvaccinated do have this strain on the medical system and it cannot be ignored. As many have said, the DEATHS from Delta and most of the hospitalized CASES from Delta are indeed among the unvaccinated. But I think the right to chose is worth the cost. Delta is also spreading around among the vaccinated. It is indeed true that Delta cases for the vaccinated are far more mild. Almost none result in hospitalization, never mind in death. But Delta is endemic, vaccinated or not. For the first year of this virus, there NEVER was the assumption we could eradicate it entirely. It's a Coronavirus like the common cold; it WILL be endemic. There never was any other outcome once it passed into the millions of cases world wide. The left's fantasy of authoritarian control and creating a perfect world from harm is simply unobtainable. The common good is to learn to deal with this, as we do the flu. Reopen, learn, make the choices you think are best and deal with the consequences. This nanny state of lockdown to try to achieve the impossible is stupid, and turning tyrannical in it's pursuit of a utopia that cannot be had.

goostavos 5y ago

>yet we force our children to be vaccinated in school in order to be part of society. Here's what's different: mandating it for everything else. It seems disingenuous to treat the documentation/mandate requirements between countries, public schools, and your local pub as equivalent. >e also force other things that impinge on personal liberty, such as wearing seatbelts, getting car (and medical) insurance, etc. "we do it for these other things" is something that sounds like an argument, but actually isn't. Does it make sense for this scenario, with this virus, at this point into the pandemic, and with these tradeoffs? If anything, saying "you've lost liberty elsewhere" is an argument for fighting tooth and nail for the bits that remain. >the short answer is "it depends on the context". I think you nailed the crux of the problem and the disconnect between people. "The context" is wildly different depending on your disposition. For a large swath of the population, the 'context' is that COVID is not an existential threat which warrants the suspension of liberty. For others, the 'context' is that COVID represents such a threat to public health that personal liberty can be traded away. We're doomed to fight, because each side finds the other reprehensible, and one side is trying to take away the liberty of the other. >Right now, vaccine holdouts are really screwing things up for us who want to return to some form of normality. This is categorically false. The unvaxxed aren't the ones preventing you from doing anything. They don't have the power to do so! The government is holding us all hostage and continuously shifting the goal post. Right now, it has been moved to the unvaxxed. Just as before it was about the curve, then controlling case numbers, then acquiring the vax, then reaching minimum vax numbers, now blaming all woes on those unvaxxed. If we look at Australia, maybe we can predict where the post will move next. >The conversation should be how to draw the right balance, so that, when the emergency is over, we return to some modicum of personal liberty, while still preserving the common good. For it to actually be a conversation, you have to accept that there are people with a different world view from you, and that they're not wrong, nor an enemy which is holding society hostage. Presumably everyone on this site can read a graph. We looked at the same data and came to different conclusions.

unsui 5y ago
replying to this comment, even though actually applies to multiple replies to my parent comment. > This is categorically false. The unvaxxed aren't the ones preventing you from doing anything. They don't have the power to do so! That itself is categorically false. unvaxxed folks provide a tremendous wealth of externalities, such as undue burden on the healthcare system, behavioral and legal changes that require masking due to lack of critical mass in vaccinations, etc. But, to get to the crux of your arguments: you do have the personal liberty to not vaccinate. That is not being taken away from you. However, you do not have the privilege of making it a protected class (which is really what you are talking about). If you choose not to be vaccinated, you can: - home school your children - self-employ and self-insure - self-medicate and avoid the healthcare system entirely etc.. Now, none of this is practical in reality, but never at any point is your choice to remain unvaccinated impinged upon. You simply don't have as many career or social options as you would like, equivalent to being unvaccinated as a protected class. And that is a horrendous idea (i.e., being a protected class). You can't have it both way... personal liberty often comes as great personal cost. If you truly walk the walk, then be prepared to pay the cost.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago

You're talking about rights versus privileges. It's a privilege to drive, not a right, thus it's reasonable that there are conditions around that. You do have a right to an education but, at least in my state, you can completely exempt your child from vaccines and still send them to public school. But even if you don't, you have the right to educate your child in other ways (i.e. home school).