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A practical example are the Jan 6 riots in DC and the attacks on the integrity of voting. Both peaceful transitions of power and trustworthy elections are bedr

A practical example are the Jan 6 riots in DC and the attacks on the integrity of voting. Both peaceful transitions of power and trustworthy elections are bedrocks of democracy and so attacking them weaken democratic societies. At some point a coup succeeds and democracy is dead.

azangru 5y ago
Weren't the rioters convinced that they were saving the democracy that was about to be undermined by what they considered to be a stolen election? If so, weren't they participating in the democracy? As a thought experiment, consider protests against fraudulent elections in other countries (Russia and Belarus come to mind, but I am sure I saw some other countries in newspaper headlines recently). Would you consider those protests to be an exercise in democracy?
- speeder 5y ago
  What saddens me about that business, is that the criticism against certain voting machine companies in the US is considered "anti-democratic conspiracy theories" while the same criticism against the very same companies in other countries is considered "pro-democratic". The thing is, these companies are running the elections like a black box, Princeton University already has shown it is easy to hack Diebold machines for example, and we had very suspicious cases in other countries (for example voting machines in a state election in Brazil registered more votes than voters, and the amount of "invalid" votes, absentees and "blank" votes were all identical, when someone asked for a recount the response of the government was to say the machines must be trusted and fine the shit out of the candidate that complained, for "education purposes.")
- benlivengood 5y ago
  Democracies don't die from a single stolen election. The remedy is in the courts to determine if the election was stolen and then in the legislature to fix whatever problems allowed it. Convincing people that democracies must be saved by violent revolt is what kills democracy. The true enemy is lawlessness, not the other half of the country. Fraudulent elections are happening in countries that are, in fact, no longer democracies and have not been for some time. I'm open to arguments that the U.S. is no longer a functioning democracy, but the ability to still have mostly peaceful transitions of power and for election audits to come back clean reassures me a little bit.
inglor_cz 5y ago
Or a coup does not succeed and the powers that be start looking for ways how to actually strengthen the trust in democracy. For example, Swiss constitution of 1848 was a result of a civil war. Its provisions made the division of powers between the federation and the cantons clear and Switzerland has never had a violent crisis again.

azangru 5y ago

Weren't the rioters convinced that they were saving the democracy that was about to be undermined by what they considered to be a stolen election? If so, weren't they participating in the democracy? As a thought experiment, consider protests against fraudulent elections in other countries (Russia and Belarus come to mind, but I am sure I saw some other countries in newspaper headlines recently). Would you consider those protests to be an exercise in democracy?

speeder 5y ago
What saddens me about that business, is that the criticism against certain voting machine companies in the US is considered "anti-democratic conspiracy theories" while the same criticism against the very same companies in other countries is considered "pro-democratic". The thing is, these companies are running the elections like a black box, Princeton University already has shown it is easy to hack Diebold machines for example, and we had very suspicious cases in other countries (for example voting machines in a state election in Brazil registered more votes than voters, and the amount of "invalid" votes, absentees and "blank" votes were all identical, when someone asked for a recount the response of the government was to say the machines must be trusted and fine the shit out of the candidate that complained, for "education purposes.")
benlivengood 5y ago
Democracies don't die from a single stolen election. The remedy is in the courts to determine if the election was stolen and then in the legislature to fix whatever problems allowed it. Convincing people that democracies must be saved by violent revolt is what kills democracy. The true enemy is lawlessness, not the other half of the country. Fraudulent elections are happening in countries that are, in fact, no longer democracies and have not been for some time. I'm open to arguments that the U.S. is no longer a functioning democracy, but the ability to still have mostly peaceful transitions of power and for election audits to come back clean reassures me a little bit.

inglor_cz 5y ago

Or a coup does not succeed and the powers that be start looking for ways how to actually strengthen the trust in democracy. For example, Swiss constitution of 1848 was a result of a civil war. Its provisions made the division of powers between the federation and the cantons clear and Switzerland has never had a violent crisis again.