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A dichotomy that is thankfully entirely fictional. It's better to believe neiter. But if we are being reasonable, relgion has caused unfathomable turmoil and d

by ehnto 5y ago

A dichotomy that is thankfully entirely fictional. It's better to believe neiter. But if we are being reasonable, relgion has caused unfathomable turmoil and despair across centuries. The Kardashians hardly tweak the needle in pain inflicted. It's not like people are going to war over them. I think some perspective is needed about what religion actually is at times. It isn't just sunday church with Grandma.

mattmanser 5y ago
I used to think like that, but have come to realize it's people that caused all that. There are many different 'tribes', for want of a better name, be they based around religion, nationality, personality cults, even sport, they can be used for good and bad. But it's the leaders, the people, that make that decision. After all, they may not have gone to war for a Karshadian, but they have for a Trump.
- Layke1123 5y ago
  Religion gives people the ability to do bad things in the name of god or gods that they normally would not do.
- ehnto 5y ago
  I certainly don't disagree with you, but I think it is still right to blame religion specifically because religion often isn't passive and it's intentionally so. It noticed those traits in humanity you pointed out, and it capitalizes on them through evangelism and then division. Evangelism and then separating you from other groups is built into pretty much all major religions, which is likely why they are still around. Of course a lot of people don't practice that so much now, there are a lot of passive religious people. But it's built into the fabric of the idea of religion I feel, which is worth criticizing.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    > It is still right to blame religion (...) often isn't passive and it's intentionally so. (...) capitalizes on them through evangelism and then division You singling out religion is saying more about you than it says about religion and religious people. I don't even need to squint my eyes too much to see how your description still applies to all types of different ideologies - Trotskyists, "being Woke" and Racial Supremacists are all examples that come to mind.
    - ehnto 5y ago
      Spare me the personal jab. It's a discussion about organised religion, in which I am criticising it specifically, it doesn't mean I think religion is the lone offender. Perhaps my using the word "blame" in the grandparent wasn't very clear. I mean blame it specifically for the issues it specifically creates, and not just let it go blame-free because humans would have had wars anyway. Issues such as evangelism in African countries creating religious tensions that wouldn't otherwise exist. To your more reasonable paragraph, of course it can apply to other ideologies. I am just pointing out that religion is quite a bit more organised than most ideologies, hence it's centuries of success. To be super duper clear, I said more organised than most, this doesn't mean I think other ideologies can't be organised in the same ways.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        There is a country with over 1 billion people that sorta-kinda breaks your argument. Its leadership is staunchly anti-religion, and I heard they are quite organized. (They are also responsible for a large number of contemporary violations of human-rights and atrocities going on in the world)
        ehnto 5y ago
        Which is evidence toward the idea that organized groups can do great evil, which was my point about religion. I am not saying that organized religion is the only ideological method to organized people into wrongdoing, just that it is one of them, and it's one of the most effective ones so far.
        rglullis 5y ago
        > organized groups can do great evil, which was my point about religion. If your point can be made by replacing "religion" with anything that can characterize a group or society, your point is not about religion. You are trying to make a particularization based on a generality. That is not only a cheap rhetorical trick, it is also the kind of thing that leads to biases, prejudices and "othering", which ironically enough is one of the things that do lead to one of the most effective ways to lead people into polarization and conflicts based on segregation of individuals.
rglullis 5y ago
> relgion has caused unfathomable turmoil and despair across centuries. Religion has been used as a justification to cause unfathomable turmoil and despair across centuries. Even if no religion existed, wars and conflict would still exist.

by ehnto 5y ago

mattmanser 5y ago

I used to think like that, but have come to realize it's people that caused all that. There are many different 'tribes', for want of a better name, be they based around religion, nationality, personality cults, even sport, they can be used for good and bad. But it's the leaders, the people, that make that decision. After all, they may not have gone to war for a Karshadian, but they have for a Trump.

Layke1123 5y ago
Religion gives people the ability to do bad things in the name of god or gods that they normally would not do.
ehnto 5y ago
I certainly don't disagree with you, but I think it is still right to blame religion specifically because religion often isn't passive and it's intentionally so. It noticed those traits in humanity you pointed out, and it capitalizes on them through evangelism and then division. Evangelism and then separating you from other groups is built into pretty much all major religions, which is likely why they are still around. Of course a lot of people don't practice that so much now, there are a lot of passive religious people. But it's built into the fabric of the idea of religion I feel, which is worth criticizing.
- rglullis 5y ago
  > It is still right to blame religion (...) often isn't passive and it's intentionally so. (...) capitalizes on them through evangelism and then division You singling out religion is saying more about you than it says about religion and religious people. I don't even need to squint my eyes too much to see how your description still applies to all types of different ideologies - Trotskyists, "being Woke" and Racial Supremacists are all examples that come to mind.
  - ehnto 5y ago
    Spare me the personal jab. It's a discussion about organised religion, in which I am criticising it specifically, it doesn't mean I think religion is the lone offender. Perhaps my using the word "blame" in the grandparent wasn't very clear. I mean blame it specifically for the issues it specifically creates, and not just let it go blame-free because humans would have had wars anyway. Issues such as evangelism in African countries creating religious tensions that wouldn't otherwise exist. To your more reasonable paragraph, of course it can apply to other ideologies. I am just pointing out that religion is quite a bit more organised than most ideologies, hence it's centuries of success. To be super duper clear, I said more organised than most, this doesn't mean I think other ideologies can't be organised in the same ways.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      There is a country with over 1 billion people that sorta-kinda breaks your argument. Its leadership is staunchly anti-religion, and I heard they are quite organized. (They are also responsible for a large number of contemporary violations of human-rights and atrocities going on in the world)
      - ehnto 5y ago
        Which is evidence toward the idea that organized groups can do great evil, which was my point about religion. I am not saying that organized religion is the only ideological method to organized people into wrongdoing, just that it is one of them, and it's one of the most effective ones so far.
        rglullis 5y ago
        > organized groups can do great evil, which was my point about religion. If your point can be made by replacing "religion" with anything that can characterize a group or society, your point is not about religion. You are trying to make a particularization based on a generality. That is not only a cheap rhetorical trick, it is also the kind of thing that leads to biases, prejudices and "othering", which ironically enough is one of the things that do lead to one of the most effective ways to lead people into polarization and conflicts based on segregation of individuals.

rglullis 5y ago

> relgion has caused unfathomable turmoil and despair across centuries. Religion has been used as a justification to cause unfathomable turmoil and despair across centuries. Even if no religion existed, wars and conflict would still exist.