8 ms·

>> nationalize and seize energy corporations and whip them into shape under planned economic management. Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/

>> nationalize and seize energy corporations and whip them into shape under planned economic management. Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? Unless you can really picture that and still tell yourself "yup, I really do want that," you shouldn't be excited/confident about what you're proposing. I suspect you can't really imagine what it's like to lack fuel that powers your necessities, but I grew up in the USSR in 1980s and I can tell you it's not good.

mushbino 5y ago
You're doing the equivalent of pointing to Liberia as an example of why privatization is bad. Nationalization has been working out pretty well for China and if we really want to tackle climate change we need collective action. It's the only way
adreamingsoul 5y ago
How is “nationalising energy” anything similar to the socialist state of the USSR?
- perceptronas 5y ago
  Grandparent mentioned "planned economy" + "nationalizing energy" which is a fair comparison to USSR as it was illegal to have private companies there and economy was planned in great detail
bserge 5y ago
Oh yeah, and having a union for workers automatically means the country has gone communist. /s
KronisLV 5y ago
> Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? Unless you can really picture that and still tell yourself "yup, I really do want that," you shouldn't be excited/confident about what you're proposing. This seems like an exaggeration. If anything, compare the current CO2 emissions per capita by country to get a better picture of how things would be in reality: https://i.redd.it/mnt8im0yvvd41.png https://i.redd.it/mnt8im0yvvd41.png It'd probably be a shift in your standard of living, for example when going from the situation in the US (16.5 tonnes of CO2 per capita) to the situation in the UK (5.7 tonnes of CO2 per capita). I wouldn't say that the people in the UK have empty stores, but they definitely have a less rampant disregard for the environment while chasing profit margins. In practice, if you wanted to be more environmentally friendly, you'd drive a hatchback instead of a SUV or would use public transportation, would live in an apartment building instead of having your own house, would eat meat once a week instead of once a day, would have a new phone and computer every 5 years instead of every year, as well as would do all of the other things that responsible people should do, including exercising your rights within a democratic government. That also seems to be working out great for the Scandinavian countries. But the most important thing - you'd stop having so many kids and would lower your population density, on the path to which most European countries are already on. On an unrelated note, where i live (Latvia), heating my house is a matter of fetching some firewood and lighting the furnace: that way central heating takes care of making the rooms warm for everyone who lives in the house, while i can also use the furnace for making bread or anything else. Sources for the visualization: [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ew2sn7/per_capita_co2_emissions_by_country_oc/ [1] https://www.icos-cp.eu/science-and-impact/global-carbon-budget/2019 [2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.TOTL
- xyzelement 5y ago
  > you'd stop having so many kids and would lower your population density, on the path to which most European countries are already on You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time. Whether it's countries like Japan and Russia desperately trying to encourage births, China lifting its one-child policy, villages in Italy paying people to move there, desolate post-industrial towns in the US rotting, etc - everything points to population decline as a strictly terrible thing. Like you, I was also born in Latvia. In 1980s, the country had 2.6 million people. Today, something like 1.9 million - 27% decline in 40 years. You may celebrate this from the CO2 point of view but I think the more obvious interpretation of these numbers is "Latvia is dying." It saddens me to see this. I am not sure whether the land will just be empty or it will be populated by people from cultures who have not reduced their children (history suggests the latter) but - are you sure this is what you want? Also, taken to the extreme, your logic suggests not just reducing kids, but mass suicide/homicide. After all, if we care about CO2 above all else, why wait a generation for the number of "emitters" to decline, when we can just solve the problem today? None of this is to say that reducing emissions isn't important and there are a ton of great ways to do that (new energy sources, reduced commuting through better and better communication tools) coming on-line that I am really excited about. But destroying future generations to move this metric doesn't seem right to me.
  - KronisLV 5y ago
    > You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time. It can be a good thing for managing emissions and the entire planet not becoming inhospitable, while at the same time being a bad thing for people in these societies in the short term. Demographic transition phases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition) are inevitable - growth cannot continue forever with limited resources and it therefore makes sense to put social mechanisms in place to cope with a significant part of the population aging at any given time. The fact that this is not the case is simply a failure in choosing the right priorities as a society, not some absolute truth. If anything, you should be asking where your tax money goes and whether there's enough to take care of the elderly that have worked their entire lives in the service of the country, instead of that responsibility being passed down to their kids. > You may celebrate this from the CO2 point of view but I think the more obvious interpretation of these numbers is "Latvia is dying." It saddens me to see this. While i share this emotion, there are cities out there that have larger populations than this entire country. I agree that the history of cultures should be preserved, but certain osmosis and naturalization of other cultural elements is inevitable in all but the most xenophobic and isolationist societies. That's not a bad thing. Countries and cultures dying out, or becoming a part of something larger (e.g. a mix of the Baltic cultures, for example) is completely natural, regardless of how any single person might feel about it - though it also takes place over hundreds or even thousands of years, so there's no need to worry about what will happen in your lifetime in that regard. What do countries even matter, if we're all stuck on this rock together? > Also, taken to the extreme, your logic suggests not just reducing kids, but mass suicide/homicide. This is a strawman that feels dishonest and that i will not engage. While the argument is "technically true", it's also one of those that are insane enough not to warrant further consideration. Rather than nitpicking, it instead makes way more sense to simply live a responsible life yourself, because you didn't choose to be brought into this world, and to consider when and whether you can afford the large amount of resources that are necessary to have a child or even many. You don't need to be a nihilist to be responsible. Then again, i do believe that many of the people who should give this a thought don't and therefore have to support the large families of their own making, that they oftentimes cannot, all at the expense of not only society, but also the quality of life that their kids have. Thus, moderation is probably for the better in life in most cases, as is introspection. Don't bring too many kids into this world if you cannot take good care of them. Don't bring too many kids into this world if the fact of them existing is likely to make things worse environmentally/otherwise. If you do bring kids into this world, be the best parent that you can be and teach them all that you can. Never make babies just because that's what your biology tells you to do, or what society expects you to do. It's not like you can't be a parent at all, though. And that's hardly destroying the future generations. You can't assume the amount of people on the planet as some sort of a proxy for well being, by that logic life was 2x worse in the 1960s: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/ https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-populat... The economic drives for persistent growth are of our own making, nothing more.
pjc50 5y ago
> Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/13/almost-400000-more-uk-homes-heading-for-fuel-poverty-campaigners-say https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/13/almost-40000... > your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2021/sep/29/uk-petrol-army-tanker-drivers-fuel-crisis-ftse-live https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2021/sep/29/uk-pet... OK, OK, this is a cheap shot and nowhere near as bad as it was in the Soviet Union, but the point is that the involvement of government in energy provision is kind of unavoidable and you can suffer supply and delivery crises under any system. I'm just about old enough to have been a child when the UK utilities were privatized, along with rail, telecomms and everything else. What this means is that instead of having a single state-owned inaccessible monolith providing bad service, you have a single investor-owned private monolith providing bad service and returning profits to investors. (BT Openreach, Railtrack, National Grid Plc). Even weirder is having foreign state owned companies in a ""competitive"" ""market"", such as DB or EDF. I don't think nationalization is the solution on its own though, because what's needed is better policy. Nationalizing things into an incompetent state, which we are currently experiencing in the UK, will just make them worse.
ceejayoz 5y ago
> Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? If these are disqualifying, capitalism's out too. Heat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis Empty stores via fuel shortage: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/28/business/brexit-fuel-food-shortages/ https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/28/business/brexit-fuel-food-sho...

mushbino 5y ago

You're doing the equivalent of pointing to Liberia as an example of why privatization is bad. Nationalization has been working out pretty well for China and if we really want to tackle climate change we need collective action. It's the only way

adreamingsoul 5y ago

How is “nationalising energy” anything similar to the socialist state of the USSR?

perceptronas 5y ago
Grandparent mentioned "planned economy" + "nationalizing energy" which is a fair comparison to USSR as it was illegal to have private companies there and economy was planned in great detail

bserge 5y ago

Oh yeah, and having a union for workers automatically means the country has gone communist. /s

KronisLV 5y ago

> Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? Unless you can really picture that and still tell yourself "yup, I really do want that," you shouldn't be excited/confident about what you're proposing. This seems like an exaggeration. If anything, compare the current CO2 emissions per capita by country to get a better picture of how things would be in reality: https://i.redd.it/mnt8im0yvvd41.png https://i.redd.it/mnt8im0yvvd41.png It'd probably be a shift in your standard of living, for example when going from the situation in the US (16.5 tonnes of CO2 per capita) to the situation in the UK (5.7 tonnes of CO2 per capita). I wouldn't say that the people in the UK have empty stores, but they definitely have a less rampant disregard for the environment while chasing profit margins. In practice, if you wanted to be more environmentally friendly, you'd drive a hatchback instead of a SUV or would use public transportation, would live in an apartment building instead of having your own house, would eat meat once a week instead of once a day, would have a new phone and computer every 5 years instead of every year, as well as would do all of the other things that responsible people should do, including exercising your rights within a democratic government. That also seems to be working out great for the Scandinavian countries. But the most important thing - you'd stop having so many kids and would lower your population density, on the path to which most European countries are already on. On an unrelated note, where i live (Latvia), heating my house is a matter of fetching some firewood and lighting the furnace: that way central heating takes care of making the rooms warm for everyone who lives in the house, while i can also use the furnace for making bread or anything else. Sources for the visualization: [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ew2sn7/per_capita_co2_emissions_by_country_oc/ [1] https://www.icos-cp.eu/science-and-impact/global-carbon-budget/2019 [2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.TOTL

xyzelement 5y ago
> you'd stop having so many kids and would lower your population density, on the path to which most European countries are already on You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time. Whether it's countries like Japan and Russia desperately trying to encourage births, China lifting its one-child policy, villages in Italy paying people to move there, desolate post-industrial towns in the US rotting, etc - everything points to population decline as a strictly terrible thing. Like you, I was also born in Latvia. In 1980s, the country had 2.6 million people. Today, something like 1.9 million - 27% decline in 40 years. You may celebrate this from the CO2 point of view but I think the more obvious interpretation of these numbers is "Latvia is dying." It saddens me to see this. I am not sure whether the land will just be empty or it will be populated by people from cultures who have not reduced their children (history suggests the latter) but - are you sure this is what you want? Also, taken to the extreme, your logic suggests not just reducing kids, but mass suicide/homicide. After all, if we care about CO2 above all else, why wait a generation for the number of "emitters" to decline, when we can just solve the problem today? None of this is to say that reducing emissions isn't important and there are a ton of great ways to do that (new energy sources, reduced commuting through better and better communication tools) coming on-line that I am really excited about. But destroying future generations to move this metric doesn't seem right to me.
- KronisLV 5y ago
  > You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time. It can be a good thing for managing emissions and the entire planet not becoming inhospitable, while at the same time being a bad thing for people in these societies in the short term. Demographic transition phases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition) are inevitable - growth cannot continue forever with limited resources and it therefore makes sense to put social mechanisms in place to cope with a significant part of the population aging at any given time. The fact that this is not the case is simply a failure in choosing the right priorities as a society, not some absolute truth. If anything, you should be asking where your tax money goes and whether there's enough to take care of the elderly that have worked their entire lives in the service of the country, instead of that responsibility being passed down to their kids. > You may celebrate this from the CO2 point of view but I think the more obvious interpretation of these numbers is "Latvia is dying." It saddens me to see this. While i share this emotion, there are cities out there that have larger populations than this entire country. I agree that the history of cultures should be preserved, but certain osmosis and naturalization of other cultural elements is inevitable in all but the most xenophobic and isolationist societies. That's not a bad thing. Countries and cultures dying out, or becoming a part of something larger (e.g. a mix of the Baltic cultures, for example) is completely natural, regardless of how any single person might feel about it - though it also takes place over hundreds or even thousands of years, so there's no need to worry about what will happen in your lifetime in that regard. What do countries even matter, if we're all stuck on this rock together? > Also, taken to the extreme, your logic suggests not just reducing kids, but mass suicide/homicide. This is a strawman that feels dishonest and that i will not engage. While the argument is "technically true", it's also one of those that are insane enough not to warrant further consideration. Rather than nitpicking, it instead makes way more sense to simply live a responsible life yourself, because you didn't choose to be brought into this world, and to consider when and whether you can afford the large amount of resources that are necessary to have a child or even many. You don't need to be a nihilist to be responsible. Then again, i do believe that many of the people who should give this a thought don't and therefore have to support the large families of their own making, that they oftentimes cannot, all at the expense of not only society, but also the quality of life that their kids have. Thus, moderation is probably for the better in life in most cases, as is introspection. Don't bring too many kids into this world if you cannot take good care of them. Don't bring too many kids into this world if the fact of them existing is likely to make things worse environmentally/otherwise. If you do bring kids into this world, be the best parent that you can be and teach them all that you can. Never make babies just because that's what your biology tells you to do, or what society expects you to do. It's not like you can't be a parent at all, though. And that's hardly destroying the future generations. You can't assume the amount of people on the planet as some sort of a proxy for well being, by that logic life was 2x worse in the 1960s: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/ https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-populat... The economic drives for persistent growth are of our own making, nothing more.

pjc50 5y ago

> Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/13/almost-400000-more-uk-homes-heading-for-fuel-poverty-campaigners-say https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/13/almost-40000... > your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2021/sep/29/uk-petrol-army-tanker-drivers-fuel-crisis-ftse-live https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2021/sep/29/uk-pet... OK, OK, this is a cheap shot and nowhere near as bad as it was in the Soviet Union, but the point is that the involvement of government in energy provision is kind of unavoidable and you can suffer supply and delivery crises under any system. I'm just about old enough to have been a child when the UK utilities were privatized, along with rail, telecomms and everything else. What this means is that instead of having a single state-owned inaccessible monolith providing bad service, you have a single investor-owned private monolith providing bad service and returning profits to investors. (BT Openreach, Railtrack, National Grid Plc). Even weirder is having foreign state owned companies in a ""competitive"" ""market"", such as DB or EDF. I don't think nationalization is the solution on its own though, because what's needed is better policy. Nationalizing things into an incompetent state, which we are currently experiencing in the UK, will just make them worse.

ceejayoz 5y ago

> Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? If these are disqualifying, capitalism's out too. Heat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis Empty stores via fuel shortage: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/28/business/brexit-fuel-food-shortages/ https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/28/business/brexit-fuel-food-sho...