7 ms·

What I always find a little bit suspect about these posts – especially from FogCreek – is that it's really, "The Price of Dev Happiness As Long As You Define Ha

by wheels 15y ago

What I always find a little bit suspect about these posts – especially from FogCreek – is that it's really, "The Price of Dev Happiness As Long As You Define Happiness The Way Your Boss (Me) Does". I prefer sitting cross-legged with a 13" laptop on a mat on the floor. I've had most of the things mentioned in the article and prefer my mat on the floor, thank you very much. But I'm just a random example. More of what I'm getting at is that individual work preferences and your own brand of "happiness" goes beyond choosing your own keyboard. There's always something a bit smug and one-size-fits-all about the FogCreek posts about their work environment (which honestly sounds like it'd make me go absolutely bonkers).

Goladus 15y ago
I generally agree, but it's a lot easier on the dev to have this default, $5,000 workstation package with components that you can decline than it is for the default to be scrounged up from whatever is lying around and you have to negotiate for extras.
domador 15y ago
I think the list is more of a likely upper-bound to fully outfit a developer's environment. The message seems to be "bosses: it's not that expensive to fully outfit your developers (don't be cheapskates)" instead of "potential FogCreek employees: this is what our cookie cutter looks like (and we'll also do corporate calisthenics every morning)". It's wonderful that you are so easy to please, though, wheels. Yes, work preferences vary from person to person, but there are likely some common themes among people.
spolsky 15y ago
I love the way people on the Internet always find a way to misinterpret every post in the worst possible way, no matter how little sense they make. After reading a detailed article about how we spend over $5000 to make sure our developers are comfortable at work, do you really think that we then CHAIN them to an Aeron chair and REQUIRE that they use 30" monitors even if they prefer sitting cross-legged on the floor with a 13" laptop? OK, maybe you believe that. We have bought beanbags and those big bouncy balls for people. We have bought Embody chairs for the rare person who doesn't like a (properly fitted) Aeron chair. If anyone wanted a 13" laptop instead of a 30" monitor, you'd say the word and in 5 minutes you'd have a 13" laptop. So, this impression you have of Fog Creek as a veal farm with identical programmers all being chained to their identical, Joel-Spolsky-Favored desks is entirely in your own imagination. It sort of reminds me of when I blogged about how we have free lunch and a bunch of people whined about how they don't like to eat with their co-workers. That's nice, some people don't, and that's fine. I never said that the free lunch was mandatory. It's almost bizarre to assume that a company that bends over backwards to make people happy and productive at work is actually some kind of evil plot that would "make you go absolutely bonkers."
- spenrose 15y ago
  The problem with viral* marketing is that you give up control of the message. * (or whatever the correct term is for HN-linked recruitment-ads-as-blog-posts)
  - smackfu 15y ago
    Exactly: "But I wrote an article about how great our company was!!!"
- wheels 15y ago
  After reading a detailed article about how we spend [...] do you really think that we then CHAIN them to an Aeron chair [...] The place that I worked that had such nice equipment basically did exactly that: you were given your standard issue equipment with virtually zero flexibility (amusingly other than keyboard and mouse, just like your setup). That said, the impression mostly comes from the way that you write about the place. You use a lot of absolute terms. There's a lot of talk about best and ideal and happy and then very precise definitions of those things. This gives readers the impression that while you have a very luxurious office, that it's also one that's quite rigid. Honestly, I'd be surprised if that wholly misses the mark. You're obviously a really smart guy that wants to do well by your employees, and good on you for that. But it also sounds like you're running a grand experiment at FogCreek where you're (mostly by fiat) deciding what you think is best for a company's culture. That may actually produce a place that for the type of folks that get hired there really clicks. I don't think I'd be one of those sorts.
  - joshuacc 15y ago
    and then very precise definitions of those things. I understood the post in a very different way. There were no definitions, but lots of concrete examples. It is a staple of writing guidelines that one should be concrete rather than abstract, specific rather than general, etc. The reason for this is that it is easier for people to reason up to the general principle than down to the specifics. The concrete examples make it more understandable.
  - 15y ago
cake 15y ago
I prefer sitting cross-legged with a 13" laptop on a mat on the floor. Somehow that's almost how I prefer to work too, but it's sort of impossible to have this setup in a professional environment.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- groby_b 15y ago
  Depends on where you work :)
guelo 15y ago
If you are really sitting cross legged on the floor 8 hours a day I predict a lot of joint pain in your future.

by wheels 15y ago

Goladus 15y ago

I generally agree, but it's a lot easier on the dev to have this default, $5,000 workstation package with components that you can decline than it is for the default to be scrounged up from whatever is lying around and you have to negotiate for extras.

domador 15y ago

I think the list is more of a likely upper-bound to fully outfit a developer's environment. The message seems to be "bosses: it's not that expensive to fully outfit your developers (don't be cheapskates)" instead of "potential FogCreek employees: this is what our cookie cutter looks like (and we'll also do corporate calisthenics every morning)". It's wonderful that you are so easy to please, though, wheels. Yes, work preferences vary from person to person, but there are likely some common themes among people.

spolsky 15y ago

I love the way people on the Internet always find a way to misinterpret every post in the worst possible way, no matter how little sense they make. After reading a detailed article about how we spend over $5000 to make sure our developers are comfortable at work, do you really think that we then CHAIN them to an Aeron chair and REQUIRE that they use 30" monitors even if they prefer sitting cross-legged on the floor with a 13" laptop? OK, maybe you believe that. We have bought beanbags and those big bouncy balls for people. We have bought Embody chairs for the rare person who doesn't like a (properly fitted) Aeron chair. If anyone wanted a 13" laptop instead of a 30" monitor, you'd say the word and in 5 minutes you'd have a 13" laptop. So, this impression you have of Fog Creek as a veal farm with identical programmers all being chained to their identical, Joel-Spolsky-Favored desks is entirely in your own imagination. It sort of reminds me of when I blogged about how we have free lunch and a bunch of people whined about how they don't like to eat with their co-workers. That's nice, some people don't, and that's fine. I never said that the free lunch was mandatory. It's almost bizarre to assume that a company that bends over backwards to make people happy and productive at work is actually some kind of evil plot that would "make you go absolutely bonkers."

spenrose 15y ago
The problem with viral* marketing is that you give up control of the message. * (or whatever the correct term is for HN-linked recruitment-ads-as-blog-posts)
- smackfu 15y ago
  Exactly: "But I wrote an article about how great our company was!!!"
wheels 15y ago
After reading a detailed article about how we spend [...] do you really think that we then CHAIN them to an Aeron chair [...] The place that I worked that had such nice equipment basically did exactly that: you were given your standard issue equipment with virtually zero flexibility (amusingly other than keyboard and mouse, just like your setup). That said, the impression mostly comes from the way that you write about the place. You use a lot of absolute terms. There's a lot of talk about best and ideal and happy and then very precise definitions of those things. This gives readers the impression that while you have a very luxurious office, that it's also one that's quite rigid. Honestly, I'd be surprised if that wholly misses the mark. You're obviously a really smart guy that wants to do well by your employees, and good on you for that. But it also sounds like you're running a grand experiment at FogCreek where you're (mostly by fiat) deciding what you think is best for a company's culture. That may actually produce a place that for the type of folks that get hired there really clicks. I don't think I'd be one of those sorts.
- joshuacc 15y ago
  and then very precise definitions of those things. I understood the post in a very different way. There were no definitions, but lots of concrete examples. It is a staple of writing guidelines that one should be concrete rather than abstract, specific rather than general, etc. The reason for this is that it is easier for people to reason up to the general principle than down to the specifics. The concrete examples make it more understandable.
- 15y ago

cake 15y ago

I prefer sitting cross-legged with a 13" laptop on a mat on the floor. Somehow that's almost how I prefer to work too, but it's sort of impossible to have this setup in a professional environment.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
groby_b 15y ago
Depends on where you work :)

guelo 15y ago

If you are really sitting cross legged on the floor 8 hours a day I predict a lot of joint pain in your future.