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I am very well aware that there is left wing in America, it just isn't represented in any meaningful way in political system in my and many others' opinion. Can

by borism 15y ago

I am very well aware that there is left wing in America, it just isn't represented in any meaningful way in political system in my and many others' opinion. Can you bring counterexamples? Here's an article that is shaping my opinion on the matter from very respected "progressive" James K. Galbraith: http://www.alternet.org/economy/151949/how_obama_is_neutralizing_the_left_and_tilting_rightward/?page=entire http://www.alternet.org/economy/151949/how_obama_is_neutrali... P.S. if you disagree, I'd appreciate explanation about what exactly.

hvs 15y ago
It may not be represented to the level that you would like it, but that isn't to say that isn't represented in any meaningful way. In much the same way, George W. Bush is considered a "conservative", but there are many on the right that do not feel that he in any way represents their beliefs as conservatives. That is a fair argument to have about both Bush and Obama, but to claim that that means that the left (or by extension the right) is not represented is disingenuous.
- borism 15y ago
  It may not be represented to the level that you would like it, but that isn't to say that isn't represented in any meaningful way. this, again, is not my personal opinion, but what I've read from political scientists. you or me can indeed not consider Bush a conservative, but in any objective terms as studied by political science he is, and in the same vein Obama and the majority of Democrats are considered centrists, not leftists (or commies, as GOP would like to paint them).
  - CWuestefeld 15y ago
    this, again, is not my personal opinion, but what I've read from political scientists. I question your use of the term "political scientist". I think you actually mean "political pundits", writers of op-ed pieces, etc. To say that someone schooled in the science of political interactions is taking a stand as to whether something is "left" or "right" really strains my credulity. The thing is, the definition of those terms -- as this thread itself demonstrates -- is a fuzzy concept that changes over time, place, and individual speaker, and doesn't have a scientific definition. Moreover, any scientist could tell you that the left-right spectrum itself is a hideously handicapped model of political values. In other words, you're never going to find a paper in political science making claims that "the political left believes that...". Now, if you believe that those folks acting as foils against the American Right -- to wit, Pres. Obama and the Democratic Party -- are not themselves representative of the Left, can you answer two questions for me? 1. What are the ideas of "real" members of the Left that Obama and the other Democrats are failing to represent? 2. Since Obama and the Democrats clearly are in opposition to the American Right, what are those ideas that they (the DEMs) are fighting for in opposition to the Right? Then, how and why do those two sets differ?
    - borism 15y ago
      Moreover, any scientist could tell you that the left-right spectrum itself is a hideously handicapped model of political values. Left/Right spectrum - absolutely. That's why modern spectrum is 2-dimensional, and I totally for expanding it into 3rd and further dimensions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum#Other_multi-axis_models http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum#Other_multi-... That doesn't mean that we can't more or less precisely place one or the other political force onto it. This is not "real" science of course, more kind of art, but if we conform to the rules of the game ("liberal democracy" it is called), then I think by polling large enough pool of political scientists/commentators/pundits/whatever-you-wanna-call-them we can arrive at pretty good consensus of where to place one party or the other at each moment in time, wouldn't you agree? now to your questions: 1. What are the ideas of "real" members of the Left that Obama and the other Democrats are failing to represent? the link to the article by J.K.Galbraith I gave above perfectly answers it, I think: Whether your prime interest is housing, health care, peace, justice, jobs or climate change, if you are an activist in America you have known for a long time that this President is not your friend. 2. Since Obama and the Democrats clearly are in opposition to the American Right, what are those ideas that they (the DEMs) are fighting for in opposition to the Right? Well, I'm actually not even so sure anymore that Obama is in clear opposition to "American Right" whatever that may be. I don't recall any issue during his presidency where he has stood his ground and haven't bowed to pressure from GOP, do you? Guantanamo, Afganistan, Healthcare, Bush Tax Cuts extensions and now Debt Ceiling deal. Not one of those went by unmodified by Tea Partiers, even when Democrats had supermajority. So I clearly side with commentators who called Obama centrist right from inauguration. I mean, who even calls Obama leftist besides Tea Partiers?
      - djeikyb 15y ago
        His presidency has been centrist, but his rhetoric was and is leftist. I am not a Tea Partier.
        borism 15y ago
        His presidency has been centrist isn't this the only thing that matters? After all we're talking about President Obama, not Senator Obama (which is a totally different topic)

by borism 15y ago

hvs 15y ago

It may not be represented to the level that you would like it, but that isn't to say that isn't represented in any meaningful way. In much the same way, George W. Bush is considered a "conservative", but there are many on the right that do not feel that he in any way represents their beliefs as conservatives. That is a fair argument to have about both Bush and Obama, but to claim that that means that the left (or by extension the right) is not represented is disingenuous.

borism 15y ago
It may not be represented to the level that you would like it, but that isn't to say that isn't represented in any meaningful way. this, again, is not my personal opinion, but what I've read from political scientists. you or me can indeed not consider Bush a conservative, but in any objective terms as studied by political science he is, and in the same vein Obama and the majority of Democrats are considered centrists, not leftists (or commies, as GOP would like to paint them).
- CWuestefeld 15y ago
  this, again, is not my personal opinion, but what I've read from political scientists. I question your use of the term "political scientist". I think you actually mean "political pundits", writers of op-ed pieces, etc. To say that someone schooled in the science of political interactions is taking a stand as to whether something is "left" or "right" really strains my credulity. The thing is, the definition of those terms -- as this thread itself demonstrates -- is a fuzzy concept that changes over time, place, and individual speaker, and doesn't have a scientific definition. Moreover, any scientist could tell you that the left-right spectrum itself is a hideously handicapped model of political values. In other words, you're never going to find a paper in political science making claims that "the political left believes that...". Now, if you believe that those folks acting as foils against the American Right -- to wit, Pres. Obama and the Democratic Party -- are not themselves representative of the Left, can you answer two questions for me? 1. What are the ideas of "real" members of the Left that Obama and the other Democrats are failing to represent? 2. Since Obama and the Democrats clearly are in opposition to the American Right, what are those ideas that they (the DEMs) are fighting for in opposition to the Right? Then, how and why do those two sets differ?
  - borism 15y ago
    Moreover, any scientist could tell you that the left-right spectrum itself is a hideously handicapped model of political values. Left/Right spectrum - absolutely. That's why modern spectrum is 2-dimensional, and I totally for expanding it into 3rd and further dimensions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum#Other_multi-axis_models http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum#Other_multi-... That doesn't mean that we can't more or less precisely place one or the other political force onto it. This is not "real" science of course, more kind of art, but if we conform to the rules of the game ("liberal democracy" it is called), then I think by polling large enough pool of political scientists/commentators/pundits/whatever-you-wanna-call-them we can arrive at pretty good consensus of where to place one party or the other at each moment in time, wouldn't you agree? now to your questions: 1. What are the ideas of "real" members of the Left that Obama and the other Democrats are failing to represent? the link to the article by J.K.Galbraith I gave above perfectly answers it, I think: Whether your prime interest is housing, health care, peace, justice, jobs or climate change, if you are an activist in America you have known for a long time that this President is not your friend. 2. Since Obama and the Democrats clearly are in opposition to the American Right, what are those ideas that they (the DEMs) are fighting for in opposition to the Right? Well, I'm actually not even so sure anymore that Obama is in clear opposition to "American Right" whatever that may be. I don't recall any issue during his presidency where he has stood his ground and haven't bowed to pressure from GOP, do you? Guantanamo, Afganistan, Healthcare, Bush Tax Cuts extensions and now Debt Ceiling deal. Not one of those went by unmodified by Tea Partiers, even when Democrats had supermajority. So I clearly side with commentators who called Obama centrist right from inauguration. I mean, who even calls Obama leftist besides Tea Partiers?
    - djeikyb 15y ago
      His presidency has been centrist, but his rhetoric was and is leftist. I am not a Tea Partier.
      - borism 15y ago
        His presidency has been centrist isn't this the only thing that matters? After all we're talking about President Obama, not Senator Obama (which is a totally different topic)