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I completely agree, and I rant about this constantly. But in America at least, cars have infected society to such a degree that for the average person imagining

by acabal 5y ago

I completely agree, and I rant about this constantly. But in America at least, cars have infected society to such a degree that for the average person imagining life without them is totally impossible--like asking a fish to imagine life without water. "How would we get groceries?" they ask, and the thought of having a small grocery store within walking distance doesn't even occur to them, because walking is something they haven't done for their entire lives. Building a life of total car dependence in the 1940s-60s is IMHO one of the two great American mistakes of the 20th century, that by destroying local bonds between neighbors and strangers has led to America's current sense of deep, unspecific anxiety and lassitude on a societal level, and on an economic level has set the stage for the destruction of both small town and urban life that we've seen in the past 30 years.

asdff 5y ago
People still live car independently but oftentimes its not by choice. Commuting on the bus in LA I would see a lot of old men and women and immigrants who would come onto the bus with groceries or children in tow. That sort of lifestyle is already possible, but we only see people with no other choice in transportation riding the bus for the most part. If we want to convince people to leave the car behind and walk and take the bus to the grocery store, we have to improve the convenience argument of the bus vs. the car. For instance, my trip to costco is an hour on the bus or 20 minutes by car, due to having to transfer to another bus line and the bus being not very frequent, not to mention stuck in traffic. If the bus ran in its own lane and was a lot more frequent, travel time to costco would drop dramatically and might even beat the car commute if the car lanes are clogged with traffic and the bus is moving at full speed without stopping at red lights. It's not even a question of implementing expensive infrastructure like boring out a subway line. The bus lines in LA at least already go everywhere, but are so slow. Buy a few more busses, hire a few more operators, increase frequency dramatically to 5 minute headways all day, paint a lane and install a curb, set the lights to flick green when the bus is coming. Just doing that alone on major bus corridors would do so much good for improving quality of life in LA and be a model for cities around the world of how to incentivize transit in an area dominated by car modal share.
narrator 5y ago
The reason for a car dependent lifestyle in the U.S is that people don't want to live around or take public transit with the riffraff. This does not make sense to anyone who lives in Europe. Anyone who lives in a high crime city in the U.S who actually takes public transit knows what I'm talking about. Whether it's morally right or wrong, that's the reason America is set up the way it is.
- acabal 5y ago
  The reason for our car dependent lifestyle is that America was specifically and purposefully engineered that way during and after WW2. Pre-war, Americans had a rich urban and small town life much like Europe had and still has to an extent. The only reason we lost it was due to misguided urban planning, encouraged by lobbying from the auto industry.
  - r00fus 5y ago
    Who Framed Roger Rabbit essentially narrates this story of the demise of the trolley.
- ketzo 5y ago
  I mean, that's a chicken-and-egg thing. The more people who use public transit, the more resources get devoted to it, and the less it feels "trashy" or like a place for "riffraff". Conversely, the fewer people who use transit, the more grim it feels for those who do use it. The existence of public transit does not necessitate crime.
- null_object 5y ago
  > The reason for a car dependent lifestyle in the U.S is that people don't want to live around or take public transit with the riffraff. This does not make sense to anyone who lives in Europe. This sort of US vs Europe stuff I read on HN regarding car use just isn’t binary at all: some countries in Europe are very car-dependent, others less so. Not all of us are like The Netherlands or Denmark, unfortunately.
- Johnythree 5y ago
Noos 5y ago
except that the small grocery stores have poor selection, expensive prices, and are more inconvenient since you have to spend more time every day to get your things instead of shopping for the month. Some of us work long hours and don't have a wife who can spend the time to do things like that. Some of us know about both options, and a car is much better. People like cars because they are freedom; you are free to go where you want without relying on public transit schedules or the realization you have maybe a five mile radius of places you can walk to in an hour.
- SyzygistSix 5y ago
  The city I lived in before this had bodegas that had a decent selection, pretty much all the basics, and were not expensive. It was nice to be able to walk a couple blocks if you just needed a few ingredients. I and many others got a lot of the basics - beans, tortillas, potatoes, tomatoes, onions, spices - from there.
- foxyv 5y ago
  I remember the first time I got a car. It was definitely freeing. But mostly because I lived in a car dependent garbage town. Everything was miles apart and criss crossed by death roads where walkers and cyclists had to be on full alert to avoid getting smeared by someone driving on a sidewalk or coming out of a driveway backwards at 30 mph. I remember the first time I moved somewhere I didn't NEED a car to survive and it was AMAZING. All of a sudden the car went from being a source of freedom to an anchor. I didn't realize how much time, money, and pain went into owning one. Insurance, registration, fuel, parking, maintenance, stressful driving, terrible commutes, time consuming trips to a grocery store, TRAFFIC, planning meals a week at a time, worrying about where I parked it, designated drivers and getting fatter every day. Cars are just a pain. If you live in the middle of nowhere a car is the best thing in the world. It expands your access to everything. Living somewhere you don't need a car is is SO MUCH BETTER.
r00fus 5y ago
This really hit home for me when my sibling and I realized our aging mom was unfit to be able to drive. 4 accidents in a year meant unreasonable insurance premiums and replacement not to mention she was injured. Going car-free really hit her independence and for 2 years, she was aching to buy a car and get more mobile. It hurt me to see her like that but I couldn't let her get behind a wheel again despite her constant complaints. Nowadays she's mostly adjusted using Lyft/Uber to go to the doctor or visit family but walking to see friends and go shopping (walk score for her place is very decent). The impact to her self-esteem hasn't quite recovered yet. Society in general even for an older individual places a LOT of worth on us being "drivers" - popular media reinforces it (just listen and you'll get tons of car references in pop music and movies). I wish she could move to somewhere like France where this isn't the case, but that ship sailed quite a few years ago.

by acabal 5y ago

asdff 5y ago

People still live car independently but oftentimes its not by choice. Commuting on the bus in LA I would see a lot of old men and women and immigrants who would come onto the bus with groceries or children in tow. That sort of lifestyle is already possible, but we only see people with no other choice in transportation riding the bus for the most part. If we want to convince people to leave the car behind and walk and take the bus to the grocery store, we have to improve the convenience argument of the bus vs. the car. For instance, my trip to costco is an hour on the bus or 20 minutes by car, due to having to transfer to another bus line and the bus being not very frequent, not to mention stuck in traffic. If the bus ran in its own lane and was a lot more frequent, travel time to costco would drop dramatically and might even beat the car commute if the car lanes are clogged with traffic and the bus is moving at full speed without stopping at red lights. It's not even a question of implementing expensive infrastructure like boring out a subway line. The bus lines in LA at least already go everywhere, but are so slow. Buy a few more busses, hire a few more operators, increase frequency dramatically to 5 minute headways all day, paint a lane and install a curb, set the lights to flick green when the bus is coming. Just doing that alone on major bus corridors would do so much good for improving quality of life in LA and be a model for cities around the world of how to incentivize transit in an area dominated by car modal share.

narrator 5y ago

The reason for a car dependent lifestyle in the U.S is that people don't want to live around or take public transit with the riffraff. This does not make sense to anyone who lives in Europe. Anyone who lives in a high crime city in the U.S who actually takes public transit knows what I'm talking about. Whether it's morally right or wrong, that's the reason America is set up the way it is.

acabal 5y ago
The reason for our car dependent lifestyle is that America was specifically and purposefully engineered that way during and after WW2. Pre-war, Americans had a rich urban and small town life much like Europe had and still has to an extent. The only reason we lost it was due to misguided urban planning, encouraged by lobbying from the auto industry.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Who Framed Roger Rabbit essentially narrates this story of the demise of the trolley.
ketzo 5y ago
I mean, that's a chicken-and-egg thing. The more people who use public transit, the more resources get devoted to it, and the less it feels "trashy" or like a place for "riffraff". Conversely, the fewer people who use transit, the more grim it feels for those who do use it. The existence of public transit does not necessitate crime.
null_object 5y ago
> The reason for a car dependent lifestyle in the U.S is that people don't want to live around or take public transit with the riffraff. This does not make sense to anyone who lives in Europe. This sort of US vs Europe stuff I read on HN regarding car use just isn’t binary at all: some countries in Europe are very car-dependent, others less so. Not all of us are like The Netherlands or Denmark, unfortunately.
Johnythree 5y ago

Noos 5y ago

except that the small grocery stores have poor selection, expensive prices, and are more inconvenient since you have to spend more time every day to get your things instead of shopping for the month. Some of us work long hours and don't have a wife who can spend the time to do things like that. Some of us know about both options, and a car is much better. People like cars because they are freedom; you are free to go where you want without relying on public transit schedules or the realization you have maybe a five mile radius of places you can walk to in an hour.

SyzygistSix 5y ago
The city I lived in before this had bodegas that had a decent selection, pretty much all the basics, and were not expensive. It was nice to be able to walk a couple blocks if you just needed a few ingredients. I and many others got a lot of the basics - beans, tortillas, potatoes, tomatoes, onions, spices - from there.
foxyv 5y ago
I remember the first time I got a car. It was definitely freeing. But mostly because I lived in a car dependent garbage town. Everything was miles apart and criss crossed by death roads where walkers and cyclists had to be on full alert to avoid getting smeared by someone driving on a sidewalk or coming out of a driveway backwards at 30 mph. I remember the first time I moved somewhere I didn't NEED a car to survive and it was AMAZING. All of a sudden the car went from being a source of freedom to an anchor. I didn't realize how much time, money, and pain went into owning one. Insurance, registration, fuel, parking, maintenance, stressful driving, terrible commutes, time consuming trips to a grocery store, TRAFFIC, planning meals a week at a time, worrying about where I parked it, designated drivers and getting fatter every day. Cars are just a pain. If you live in the middle of nowhere a car is the best thing in the world. It expands your access to everything. Living somewhere you don't need a car is is SO MUCH BETTER.

r00fus 5y ago

This really hit home for me when my sibling and I realized our aging mom was unfit to be able to drive. 4 accidents in a year meant unreasonable insurance premiums and replacement not to mention she was injured. Going car-free really hit her independence and for 2 years, she was aching to buy a car and get more mobile. It hurt me to see her like that but I couldn't let her get behind a wheel again despite her constant complaints. Nowadays she's mostly adjusted using Lyft/Uber to go to the doctor or visit family but walking to see friends and go shopping (walk score for her place is very decent). The impact to her self-esteem hasn't quite recovered yet. Society in general even for an older individual places a LOT of worth on us being "drivers" - popular media reinforces it (just listen and you'll get tons of car references in pop music and movies). I wish she could move to somewhere like France where this isn't the case, but that ship sailed quite a few years ago.