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Companies have no problem hiring people with degrees even though getting a degree takes more time than an immigrant visa so I don't buy the time explanation. So

Companies have no problem hiring people with degrees even though getting a degree takes more time than an immigrant visa so I don't buy the time explanation. Some companies don't even have a problem with sponsoring an H1B visa for foreigners, which takes time too. As to your question about benefit: for every I140 petition the company claims that the immigrant worker is the only one available, there are no Americans that can possibly do this job so, if they are not lying, it's the obvious benefit as they get someone to do the job nobody else can.

triceratops 5y ago
> Companies have no problem hiring people with degrees even though getting a degree takes more time than an immigrant visa so I don't buy the time explanation Unless you're suggesting that companies give offer letters to freshmen and then hire them upon graduation 4 years later (which I don't think is very common) this bears no comparison to what we're discussing. Next you'll be telling me companies are happy to wait for employees to be conceived, born, and go through primary and secondary school too, so why can't they wait for an EB green card? > which takes time too But far less time - O(months) rather than O(years). If the worker is already in the country working on another visa, then it's even less time. And there are no per-country caps to throw a wrench in the works. > it's the obvious benefit as they get someone to do the job nobody else can. That's useless if it'll take 1-20 years (depending on the country of birth of the employee) for them to actually be able to work for you. If they relied solely on the EB system they would have 1) no American to do the work and 2) the person they found not allowed to do the work in a reasonable amount of time (and no, 1+ year is not reasonable for a new hire to start).
- pandaman 5y ago
  Well, you did not explain how the time to obtain visa matters so I don't know what to say. Companies do give offers to interns to return in a year or two routinely, the very same companies engage in the H1B. You can get a GC in a year easily, how is this different? >But far less time - O(months) rather than O(years). Did you mean it takes years to get a green card and months to get an H1B? (your O notation makes no sense, O(x) means that lim O(x)/x -> const when x->inf). Say you want to hire an H1B from abroad right now. In the best case he or she can start on October 1st 2022, a year from now. Or lose the 2022 lottery and then the next date is October 1st 2023, two years, and the 2023 lottery is not guaranteed too so it can take multiple years. On opposite with the green card you have fixed timeframes, it takes about a year to get a EBGC even through AOS, it's faster through CP as a foreigner would go and it used to be even faster before the whole covid disfunction. >That's useless if it'll take 1-20 years (depending on the country of birth of the employee) for them to actually be able to work for you. Then they should not lie on their application, because they literally affirm that it's immensely useful for them to get an immigration visa for the foreign worker they petitioned for. I think the DOJ is actually investigating FB right now for exactly this.
  - triceratops 5y ago
    > you did not explain how the time to obtain visa matters so I don't know what to say If I hire someone I'd like them to start working sooner rather than later. I don't understand why that needs to be explained. > it takes about a year to get a EBGC even through AOS, If you aren't born in India or China. That rules out a good 1/3rd of the world's population. And even a year is a really long time to wait for a new hire to start. Fair point about the H-1B lottery. A smart company would do both simultaneously for a non-India/China born employee - EB GC and H-1B (in case the GC is delayed for some reason) - they're hiring from abroad. > Then they should not lie on their application, because they literally affirm that it's immensely useful for them to get an immigration visa for the foreign worker they petitioned for. Where's the lie? An Indian or Chinese-born worker sponsored for an EB green card today isn't going to get it for years. If they don't have a GC or work visa, they can't work for you.
    - pandaman 5y ago
      >If I hire someone I'd like them to start working sooner rather than later. I don't understand why that needs to be explained. Everyone would sure love to have immediately available workforce but I don't see how it's an insurmountable obstacle. Apart from the intern return offer, it's pretty common in some industries to have non-competes and many businesses wait for a year for almost every employer they hire to be able to start working. You just need to organize your business for the labor market realities and not your wants. Skilled labor market is rarely so liquid as to get workers without significant waits. In every firm where I worked there had been vacancies opened for years. Look at any FAANG, they have hundreds and thousands vacancies open permanently. >If you aren't born in India or China. That rules out a good 1/3rd of the world's population. And even a year is a really long time to wait for a new hire to start. Yes, it's because there are many people from China and India going through the F1->OPT->H1->GC pipeline. Nobody forces you to hire from China and India, plenty of people in Europe and the rest of Asia would love to move to America for work, experienced people too, not fresh grads. >Where's the lie? You said it's useless if the GC takes "1-20" years, most GCs take at least 1 year so they are lying when they say it's useful. Alternatively, your assertion of usefulness might not be realistic.

triceratops 5y ago

> Companies have no problem hiring people with degrees even though getting a degree takes more time than an immigrant visa so I don't buy the time explanation Unless you're suggesting that companies give offer letters to freshmen and then hire them upon graduation 4 years later (which I don't think is very common) this bears no comparison to what we're discussing. Next you'll be telling me companies are happy to wait for employees to be conceived, born, and go through primary and secondary school too, so why can't they wait for an EB green card? > which takes time too But far less time - O(months) rather than O(years). If the worker is already in the country working on another visa, then it's even less time. And there are no per-country caps to throw a wrench in the works. > it's the obvious benefit as they get someone to do the job nobody else can. That's useless if it'll take 1-20 years (depending on the country of birth of the employee) for them to actually be able to work for you. If they relied solely on the EB system they would have 1) no American to do the work and 2) the person they found not allowed to do the work in a reasonable amount of time (and no, 1+ year is not reasonable for a new hire to start).

pandaman 5y ago
Well, you did not explain how the time to obtain visa matters so I don't know what to say. Companies do give offers to interns to return in a year or two routinely, the very same companies engage in the H1B. You can get a GC in a year easily, how is this different? >But far less time - O(months) rather than O(years). Did you mean it takes years to get a green card and months to get an H1B? (your O notation makes no sense, O(x) means that lim O(x)/x -> const when x->inf). Say you want to hire an H1B from abroad right now. In the best case he or she can start on October 1st 2022, a year from now. Or lose the 2022 lottery and then the next date is October 1st 2023, two years, and the 2023 lottery is not guaranteed too so it can take multiple years. On opposite with the green card you have fixed timeframes, it takes about a year to get a EBGC even through AOS, it's faster through CP as a foreigner would go and it used to be even faster before the whole covid disfunction. >That's useless if it'll take 1-20 years (depending on the country of birth of the employee) for them to actually be able to work for you. Then they should not lie on their application, because they literally affirm that it's immensely useful for them to get an immigration visa for the foreign worker they petitioned for. I think the DOJ is actually investigating FB right now for exactly this.
- triceratops 5y ago
  > you did not explain how the time to obtain visa matters so I don't know what to say If I hire someone I'd like them to start working sooner rather than later. I don't understand why that needs to be explained. > it takes about a year to get a EBGC even through AOS, If you aren't born in India or China. That rules out a good 1/3rd of the world's population. And even a year is a really long time to wait for a new hire to start. Fair point about the H-1B lottery. A smart company would do both simultaneously for a non-India/China born employee - EB GC and H-1B (in case the GC is delayed for some reason) - they're hiring from abroad. > Then they should not lie on their application, because they literally affirm that it's immensely useful for them to get an immigration visa for the foreign worker they petitioned for. Where's the lie? An Indian or Chinese-born worker sponsored for an EB green card today isn't going to get it for years. If they don't have a GC or work visa, they can't work for you.
  - pandaman 5y ago
    >If I hire someone I'd like them to start working sooner rather than later. I don't understand why that needs to be explained. Everyone would sure love to have immediately available workforce but I don't see how it's an insurmountable obstacle. Apart from the intern return offer, it's pretty common in some industries to have non-competes and many businesses wait for a year for almost every employer they hire to be able to start working. You just need to organize your business for the labor market realities and not your wants. Skilled labor market is rarely so liquid as to get workers without significant waits. In every firm where I worked there had been vacancies opened for years. Look at any FAANG, they have hundreds and thousands vacancies open permanently. >If you aren't born in India or China. That rules out a good 1/3rd of the world's population. And even a year is a really long time to wait for a new hire to start. Yes, it's because there are many people from China and India going through the F1->OPT->H1->GC pipeline. Nobody forces you to hire from China and India, plenty of people in Europe and the rest of Asia would love to move to America for work, experienced people too, not fresh grads. >Where's the lie? You said it's useless if the GC takes "1-20" years, most GCs take at least 1 year so they are lying when they say it's useful. Alternatively, your assertion of usefulness might not be realistic.