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This is one of the reasons I love Hacker News - random and interesting bits of information. I had heard of people talking to plants, their pets, etc...but appa

This is one of the reasons I love Hacker News - random and interesting bits of information. I had heard of people talking to plants, their pets, etc...but apparently bees too, and particularly around deaths. Grasping at straws here, I could see bees being very routine-oriented, and if a particular person (esp caretaker) was dead, that could upset them because the routine is now different. Why "telling" them appears to work is a mystery.

TimTheTinker 5y ago
> Why "telling" them appears to work is a mystery. I think you're reading too much into myth and folklore. There's no real evidence for these practices ... but there doesn't need to be. It's not about whether the phenomenon is real, it's about a fun myth.
- LamdbaMamba 5y ago
  Well... maybe. Whenever I see folklore like this I always suspect there are real effects but they may be attributed incorrectly. For instance, an ancient Greek feels sick, and worships at the temple of Apollo to ask the god to heal him. The Greek starts feeling a bit better when they leave. Apollo or the placebo effect? My first thought with telling the bees is that just speaking our thoughts to an impartial third party can help ease our burdens and make us feel better. Maybe it's a therapist, a stranger at the bar, or a garden of bees. Now this doesn't explain the supposed effect of bees dying/leaving if the practice is not followed, but it could explain why the practice continues.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    > Apollo or the placebo effect? Note that the placebo effect is not about real improvement perceived by the sufferer except in a few very specific symptoms (pain, high blood pressure, and some psychiatric illnesses, mostly). In most cases, the placebo effect is simply optimistic interpretation/collection of data by people wanting to see the medicine work.
    - smaddox 5y ago
      I'm curious why you think this. Is there some research to support this view? From what I've read, the placebo effect seems quite real, with quite physical effects. And the surgical placebo effect is stronger than the medicinal placebo effect. It's not so absurd if you fully accept that the connection between mind and body is bidirectional.
      - andyjohnson0 5y ago
        Placebos aren't curative. It's well known that they can affect a subject's perception of how their condition is progressing, and this may have physical consequences: e.g. a reduction in psychological stress leading to reduced blood pressure, etc. But the placebo won't affect the underlying condition. They don't make the brain somehow cure the body. Quote: "Placebos won't lower your cholesterol or shrink a tumor. Instead, placebos work on symptoms modulated by the brain, like the perception of pain. "Placebos may make you feel better, but they will not cure you,"... "They have been shown to be most effective for conditions like pain management, stress-related insomnia, and cancer treatment side effects like fatigue and nausea." https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-th...
      - philwelch 5y ago
        There are multiple factors that contribute to the placebo effect. The psychosomatic response is one of them. "Optimistic interpretation/collection of data by people wanting to see the medicine work" is another factor, but one that's typically removed by double-blinding. With some conditions, just plain reversion-to-the-mean is also part of the placebo effect--if you take a pill to cure your headache and your headache goes away, who's to say the headache wouldn't have gone away of its own accord anyway?
        austinjp 5y ago
        Hmmm nit picking but I think regression to the mean is different from placebo. Regression to the mean: most headaches go away within a few hours. Placebo: your favourite brand of paracetamol seems to cure headaches quicker than the unbranded version. They can interact, of course.
  - mkmk 5y ago
    Maybe it's as simple as a tradition that helps make sure that nobody forgets to take care of the beehives (an important part of a community's agricultural infrastructure) when somebody dies or leaves the home (due to marriage, etc.)
    - TimTheTinker 5y ago
      That's an excellent observation.
cadamsau 5y ago
Consider that "nothing changed" gives you no information, while something changing adds to your understanding of the world. Scenario 1: big change occurs, tell the bees. Bees continue to do their thing. You gain no information because nothing changes. Scenario 2: big change occurs, don't tell the bees. Bees continue to do their thing. You gain no information because nothing changes. Scenario 3/4: no change occurs in your life, nothing to tell the bees, so it doesn't matter what you do/don't tell them. Bees continue to do their thing. You gain no information because nothing changes. Scenario 5/6: no change occurs in your life, nothing to tell the bees, so it doesn't matter what you do/don't tell them. Bees pack up and go. Welp, can't have been your fault - they did it all on their own! Scenario 7: big change occurs, you tell the bees. Bees pack up and go. But when? Right away? How does one attribute the bees leaving to YOUR actions specifically - it could have been the weather! And why would you? You did everything right & told them! There must be some other cause. You're also a little ashamed about them leaving, so you hide the information from your tribe. Also, the people you give the information to refuse to believe information that disproves the "obvious" theory that "everyone knows", that you must tell the bees. Scenario 8: big change occurs, you don't tell the bees. Regardless whether the bees pack up and go, you're feeling a little guilty for not keeping up your tradition (which you know your tribe has come to expect of you), so you're primed to associate any change in bee behavior with your own change in behavior. The bees could even take several months to pack up and go - thus giving these scenarios a higher likelihood of occurring. You still blame yourself, and you tell your sad tale far and wide. Your reaction to the Scenarios where the bees pack up and go are the only times the you gain information. That makes them the times you're most likely to talk about to your tribe. "I did stuff and nothing happened" doesn't make for much of a story and isn't useful to others so they won't remember it. And because this is all about storytelling and trying to survive, your tribe will pass on any story believed to help them survive. The fact this is happening for every beekeeper everywhere and they can talk to each other amplifies any individually held superstition, which helps to reinforce the superstition and pass it down through the ages.

TimTheTinker 5y ago

> Why "telling" them appears to work is a mystery. I think you're reading too much into myth and folklore. There's no real evidence for these practices ... but there doesn't need to be. It's not about whether the phenomenon is real, it's about a fun myth.

LamdbaMamba 5y ago
Well... maybe. Whenever I see folklore like this I always suspect there are real effects but they may be attributed incorrectly. For instance, an ancient Greek feels sick, and worships at the temple of Apollo to ask the god to heal him. The Greek starts feeling a bit better when they leave. Apollo or the placebo effect? My first thought with telling the bees is that just speaking our thoughts to an impartial third party can help ease our burdens and make us feel better. Maybe it's a therapist, a stranger at the bar, or a garden of bees. Now this doesn't explain the supposed effect of bees dying/leaving if the practice is not followed, but it could explain why the practice continues.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  > Apollo or the placebo effect? Note that the placebo effect is not about real improvement perceived by the sufferer except in a few very specific symptoms (pain, high blood pressure, and some psychiatric illnesses, mostly). In most cases, the placebo effect is simply optimistic interpretation/collection of data by people wanting to see the medicine work.
  - smaddox 5y ago
    I'm curious why you think this. Is there some research to support this view? From what I've read, the placebo effect seems quite real, with quite physical effects. And the surgical placebo effect is stronger than the medicinal placebo effect. It's not so absurd if you fully accept that the connection between mind and body is bidirectional.
    - andyjohnson0 5y ago
      Placebos aren't curative. It's well known that they can affect a subject's perception of how their condition is progressing, and this may have physical consequences: e.g. a reduction in psychological stress leading to reduced blood pressure, etc. But the placebo won't affect the underlying condition. They don't make the brain somehow cure the body. Quote: "Placebos won't lower your cholesterol or shrink a tumor. Instead, placebos work on symptoms modulated by the brain, like the perception of pain. "Placebos may make you feel better, but they will not cure you,"... "They have been shown to be most effective for conditions like pain management, stress-related insomnia, and cancer treatment side effects like fatigue and nausea." https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-th...
    - philwelch 5y ago
      There are multiple factors that contribute to the placebo effect. The psychosomatic response is one of them. "Optimistic interpretation/collection of data by people wanting to see the medicine work" is another factor, but one that's typically removed by double-blinding. With some conditions, just plain reversion-to-the-mean is also part of the placebo effect--if you take a pill to cure your headache and your headache goes away, who's to say the headache wouldn't have gone away of its own accord anyway?
      - austinjp 5y ago
        Hmmm nit picking but I think regression to the mean is different from placebo. Regression to the mean: most headaches go away within a few hours. Placebo: your favourite brand of paracetamol seems to cure headaches quicker than the unbranded version. They can interact, of course.
- mkmk 5y ago
  Maybe it's as simple as a tradition that helps make sure that nobody forgets to take care of the beehives (an important part of a community's agricultural infrastructure) when somebody dies or leaves the home (due to marriage, etc.)
  - TimTheTinker 5y ago
    That's an excellent observation.

cadamsau 5y ago

Consider that "nothing changed" gives you no information, while something changing adds to your understanding of the world. Scenario 1: big change occurs, tell the bees. Bees continue to do their thing. You gain no information because nothing changes. Scenario 2: big change occurs, don't tell the bees. Bees continue to do their thing. You gain no information because nothing changes. Scenario 3/4: no change occurs in your life, nothing to tell the bees, so it doesn't matter what you do/don't tell them. Bees continue to do their thing. You gain no information because nothing changes. Scenario 5/6: no change occurs in your life, nothing to tell the bees, so it doesn't matter what you do/don't tell them. Bees pack up and go. Welp, can't have been your fault - they did it all on their own! Scenario 7: big change occurs, you tell the bees. Bees pack up and go. But when? Right away? How does one attribute the bees leaving to YOUR actions specifically - it could have been the weather! And why would you? You did everything right & told them! There must be some other cause. You're also a little ashamed about them leaving, so you hide the information from your tribe. Also, the people you give the information to refuse to believe information that disproves the "obvious" theory that "everyone knows", that you must tell the bees. Scenario 8: big change occurs, you don't tell the bees. Regardless whether the bees pack up and go, you're feeling a little guilty for not keeping up your tradition (which you know your tribe has come to expect of you), so you're primed to associate any change in bee behavior with your own change in behavior. The bees could even take several months to pack up and go - thus giving these scenarios a higher likelihood of occurring. You still blame yourself, and you tell your sad tale far and wide. Your reaction to the Scenarios where the bees pack up and go are the only times the you gain information. That makes them the times you're most likely to talk about to your tribe. "I did stuff and nothing happened" doesn't make for much of a story and isn't useful to others so they won't remember it. And because this is all about storytelling and trying to survive, your tribe will pass on any story believed to help them survive. The fact this is happening for every beekeeper everywhere and they can talk to each other amplifies any individually held superstition, which helps to reinforce the superstition and pass it down through the ages.