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Off-topic, but would you mind sharing your opinion on your PhD? I presume you completed it. If you were in the same situation today, would you complete your PhD

Off-topic, but would you mind sharing your opinion on your PhD? I presume you completed it. If you were in the same situation today, would you complete your PhD or drop out to go into industry? Basically, is a PhD worth it even if you're 100% planning to go into industry?

teekert 5y ago
I think that is a hard question to answer, because it depends on many things. So I'll give you some (hopefully useful) details. To start with answering your question: I completed my PhD indeed and I would do it again. But mainly because I had such a good time. It was fun, I was with people in my age group, traveled (about once a year internationally). My prof was an older man and really cared for his students, he wanted us to learn something and took time to help, even in the lab. This was all in the Netherlands where the salary for a PhD student is quite ok. I published only one article (although my thesis had 4 scientific chapters that could have been published). There was not a lot of stress nor a competitive environment. That said, I had direct colleagues under an Assistant Professor that were pushed much harder, that Assistant Prof still had prove himself and his students had a worse time than me. Being in between a Physics Prof and a Molecular Biology Professor also taught me the importance of plotting my own path, I was the one with the best information in both fields. I realized this quite late. My PhD did help me get hired where I work now (although I may have been hired faster at other places without it), and it makes some things easier, mainly I think it helps in meetings with many other PhDs. But that may just be how I experience it. Interestingly I have a colleague with who I am often seen as "a pair" but after her MSc she briefly worked in an academic lab then switched to industry. She is very good at organizing stuff and got the team lead position that I also applied for. She is at the same level as me (although she got there a bit later) and makes about the same as well. She proved herself in the company and I bet she would have no problems finding a job elsewhere with her track record. She leaves no loose ends and gets things done in complex research projects. You don't need a PhD for that. But she confesses she often feels uncomfortable when we have meeting where everyone introduces themselves and their PhD topic and further career. I think it's BS, she's being too modest often, I wonder if a title would have helped her there. Was it worth it? I don't know, I liked it. My advice would be to try and find a nice prof, a fun group, make sure you don't end up as a "measurement slave" and burn out. That may mean you ignore that super high profile lab, but that lab may burn you out. I've heard professors smilingly proclaim "This was tough, I burned 6 PhD students on this". You don't want to be one of those. It's nice to be able to focus on 1 topic for 4 years and make it your own. But you can get where I am without it. And you may find something like that in industry as well. I ended up in a Research department, where we had a lot freedom, a lot of money and a lot or rapid prototyping technology. I really enjoyed that. I still got to go to conferences, albeit a bit less than during my PhD. I saw people dropping out, and I understood why, even though our group and prof were low-stress it isn't for everyone. There is no shame in it. Only finish it if you're having a good time or the finish line is near. Hope this helps, feel free to ask more. I often coach the young ones over a beer late at night during the few conferences I still attend (pre-covid) ;)
- jenny91 5y ago
  Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to write out a detailed reply and sharing your experience! Being embedded in the academic world, there is such a warped selectionship bias, it's good to hear the experience of someone who left and did important things outside academia! I'm in my second year of a STEM PhD, and I'm not really sure what I want to do with this. I'm kind of contemplating dropping out, but it's difficult to say how much of my frustrations stem from pandemic-related things (the lack of that social stuff, and the way the university has handled the pandemic) and how much they will persist past it. It seems the department used to have a really good social life before the pandemic, so I'm hopeful. I'm also frustrated with my advisor, but after an important deadline soon I will bring my frustrations up to them and see how that goes. On the other hand, I have a lot of free time compared to when I used to work full-time. I have the freedom to work on projects I want to work on (both by steering/concentrating my research into cool things but also in my plentiful free time). I moved from overseas to a very good university in the US in a cool city for the PhD. I feel like I've climbed so high in some sense, from an unknown, small regional city to where I'm at now, and it feels like a "huge thing to throw it away". Then on one hand I feel like I will reap benefits of the PhD for life; as you mention in meetings, I think in the US there is even more "credentialism" and having a PhD from a well known university makes you "smart" a priori. (Typing that out, it sounds like such a vain thing to care about. I joke that my parents will never see me as an adult until I have a doctorate.) I'm on the fence with these things... But I don't think dropping out and getting a job would be a very good idea until we emerge a bit more from covid, so my contingency plan is to wait it out for a few months and re-evaluate. Anyway, sorry, I realize this ended up being a long excerpt of my internal monologue and was probably not particularly exciting or interesting to read!
  - teekert 5y ago
    Np. It's difficult for an outsider to say anything helpful. But if it's really Covid related that frustrates you, keep in mind that other places are probably no different. If it's the advisor, just keep in mind that you are the only one that has your best interest at heart. Your advisor (prof?) has different goals. But some goals align, for example you probably both want you to finish your PhD (in the Netherlands this means a lot of money for the institute) and to write some articles while getting there. This means you can respectfully indicate that it is in her/his best interest if you stay (or just hint at leaving if nothing changes) and that something has to change (indicate that you are experiencing pressure?). I always tell people: You're either at the table or you're on the menu. In other words, make your choices or someone else will make them for you. Being able to respectfully stand up for yourself is an important skill and one that is (given a healthy relationship) always appreciated. Employers don't want you to leave (and if they do: Leave) so give them the chance to make things better for you instead of just leaving suddenly. Looking back your advisor may have wished for a opportunity to help you finish smoothly, even though that desire might not be expressed now (some managers believe some pressure and show of power is good for you and it makes them "a real manager", I never understood that personally). It seems that you still have about 2 years to go, I had 0 articles at 3 years, but if you already have 1 or more you are well underway to finishing successfully I guess. Still I feel you'd really like to stop it. Again, there is no shame in that if you ask me. The biggest downsides are probably the self judgement and they way that makes you feel. But you could choose to feel like you made a choice for the better (better mental health, no more 2 years of pain to look forward to) and just go for it. And indeed it sounds like a vain thing to care about, but it's real and it can help you. But what is it worth? Who are you disappointing when you stop? Hopefully not yourself and your parents, the rest: you don't need them. Again, I can't speak for you, and your mental well-being is important so it is important to determine the source of you not feeling optimal. Is it the PhD? Is it Covid restrictions? Sometimes it's good to live by the day, find something nice to do each day and don't focus too much on the future. It will come, you have time.
abcc8 5y ago
Not the author of the parent comment, however my experience has been similar. My take is that it depends heavily on the field. If you're in biosciences, then yes, absolutely (I can't speak to other fields). You won't get very far with just a BS degree - mostly technician positions. With a MS you can get better roles but they will still largely be more technical, often with little autonomy until multiple years of work experience have been gained. PhDs are often more highly compensated that non-PhDs and those with PhDs can progress though the career ranks more quickly and ultimately rise higher within the timespan of a career. After completing your PhD sticking around to do a post-doc or two is not advised, as work experience may be much more valuable than additional academic experience at that point (personal view). I would stress, though, that one really must want the experience of completing a PhD in order to consider doing one - the time, stress, and opportunity costs are non-negligible. Also, please take all this with a grain of salt, as generalizations as broad as those I've described are always easily proven wrong.

teekert 5y ago

I think that is a hard question to answer, because it depends on many things. So I'll give you some (hopefully useful) details. To start with answering your question: I completed my PhD indeed and I would do it again. But mainly because I had such a good time. It was fun, I was with people in my age group, traveled (about once a year internationally). My prof was an older man and really cared for his students, he wanted us to learn something and took time to help, even in the lab. This was all in the Netherlands where the salary for a PhD student is quite ok. I published only one article (although my thesis had 4 scientific chapters that could have been published). There was not a lot of stress nor a competitive environment. That said, I had direct colleagues under an Assistant Professor that were pushed much harder, that Assistant Prof still had prove himself and his students had a worse time than me. Being in between a Physics Prof and a Molecular Biology Professor also taught me the importance of plotting my own path, I was the one with the best information in both fields. I realized this quite late. My PhD did help me get hired where I work now (although I may have been hired faster at other places without it), and it makes some things easier, mainly I think it helps in meetings with many other PhDs. But that may just be how I experience it. Interestingly I have a colleague with who I am often seen as "a pair" but after her MSc she briefly worked in an academic lab then switched to industry. She is very good at organizing stuff and got the team lead position that I also applied for. She is at the same level as me (although she got there a bit later) and makes about the same as well. She proved herself in the company and I bet she would have no problems finding a job elsewhere with her track record. She leaves no loose ends and gets things done in complex research projects. You don't need a PhD for that. But she confesses she often feels uncomfortable when we have meeting where everyone introduces themselves and their PhD topic and further career. I think it's BS, she's being too modest often, I wonder if a title would have helped her there. Was it worth it? I don't know, I liked it. My advice would be to try and find a nice prof, a fun group, make sure you don't end up as a "measurement slave" and burn out. That may mean you ignore that super high profile lab, but that lab may burn you out. I've heard professors smilingly proclaim "This was tough, I burned 6 PhD students on this". You don't want to be one of those. It's nice to be able to focus on 1 topic for 4 years and make it your own. But you can get where I am without it. And you may find something like that in industry as well. I ended up in a Research department, where we had a lot freedom, a lot of money and a lot or rapid prototyping technology. I really enjoyed that. I still got to go to conferences, albeit a bit less than during my PhD. I saw people dropping out, and I understood why, even though our group and prof were low-stress it isn't for everyone. There is no shame in it. Only finish it if you're having a good time or the finish line is near. Hope this helps, feel free to ask more. I often coach the young ones over a beer late at night during the few conferences I still attend (pre-covid) ;)

jenny91 5y ago
Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to write out a detailed reply and sharing your experience! Being embedded in the academic world, there is such a warped selectionship bias, it's good to hear the experience of someone who left and did important things outside academia! I'm in my second year of a STEM PhD, and I'm not really sure what I want to do with this. I'm kind of contemplating dropping out, but it's difficult to say how much of my frustrations stem from pandemic-related things (the lack of that social stuff, and the way the university has handled the pandemic) and how much they will persist past it. It seems the department used to have a really good social life before the pandemic, so I'm hopeful. I'm also frustrated with my advisor, but after an important deadline soon I will bring my frustrations up to them and see how that goes. On the other hand, I have a lot of free time compared to when I used to work full-time. I have the freedom to work on projects I want to work on (both by steering/concentrating my research into cool things but also in my plentiful free time). I moved from overseas to a very good university in the US in a cool city for the PhD. I feel like I've climbed so high in some sense, from an unknown, small regional city to where I'm at now, and it feels like a "huge thing to throw it away". Then on one hand I feel like I will reap benefits of the PhD for life; as you mention in meetings, I think in the US there is even more "credentialism" and having a PhD from a well known university makes you "smart" a priori. (Typing that out, it sounds like such a vain thing to care about. I joke that my parents will never see me as an adult until I have a doctorate.) I'm on the fence with these things... But I don't think dropping out and getting a job would be a very good idea until we emerge a bit more from covid, so my contingency plan is to wait it out for a few months and re-evaluate. Anyway, sorry, I realize this ended up being a long excerpt of my internal monologue and was probably not particularly exciting or interesting to read!
- teekert 5y ago
  Np. It's difficult for an outsider to say anything helpful. But if it's really Covid related that frustrates you, keep in mind that other places are probably no different. If it's the advisor, just keep in mind that you are the only one that has your best interest at heart. Your advisor (prof?) has different goals. But some goals align, for example you probably both want you to finish your PhD (in the Netherlands this means a lot of money for the institute) and to write some articles while getting there. This means you can respectfully indicate that it is in her/his best interest if you stay (or just hint at leaving if nothing changes) and that something has to change (indicate that you are experiencing pressure?). I always tell people: You're either at the table or you're on the menu. In other words, make your choices or someone else will make them for you. Being able to respectfully stand up for yourself is an important skill and one that is (given a healthy relationship) always appreciated. Employers don't want you to leave (and if they do: Leave) so give them the chance to make things better for you instead of just leaving suddenly. Looking back your advisor may have wished for a opportunity to help you finish smoothly, even though that desire might not be expressed now (some managers believe some pressure and show of power is good for you and it makes them "a real manager", I never understood that personally). It seems that you still have about 2 years to go, I had 0 articles at 3 years, but if you already have 1 or more you are well underway to finishing successfully I guess. Still I feel you'd really like to stop it. Again, there is no shame in that if you ask me. The biggest downsides are probably the self judgement and they way that makes you feel. But you could choose to feel like you made a choice for the better (better mental health, no more 2 years of pain to look forward to) and just go for it. And indeed it sounds like a vain thing to care about, but it's real and it can help you. But what is it worth? Who are you disappointing when you stop? Hopefully not yourself and your parents, the rest: you don't need them. Again, I can't speak for you, and your mental well-being is important so it is important to determine the source of you not feeling optimal. Is it the PhD? Is it Covid restrictions? Sometimes it's good to live by the day, find something nice to do each day and don't focus too much on the future. It will come, you have time.

abcc8 5y ago

Not the author of the parent comment, however my experience has been similar. My take is that it depends heavily on the field. If you're in biosciences, then yes, absolutely (I can't speak to other fields). You won't get very far with just a BS degree - mostly technician positions. With a MS you can get better roles but they will still largely be more technical, often with little autonomy until multiple years of work experience have been gained. PhDs are often more highly compensated that non-PhDs and those with PhDs can progress though the career ranks more quickly and ultimately rise higher within the timespan of a career. After completing your PhD sticking around to do a post-doc or two is not advised, as work experience may be much more valuable than additional academic experience at that point (personal view). I would stress, though, that one really must want the experience of completing a PhD in order to consider doing one - the time, stress, and opportunity costs are non-negligible. Also, please take all this with a grain of salt, as generalizations as broad as those I've described are always easily proven wrong.