6 ms·

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't you want to build a semiconductor fabrication factory somewhere cold? Or is it because Arizona is dry? (honest questions, I

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't you want to build a semiconductor fabrication factory somewhere cold? Or is it because Arizona is dry? (honest questions, I don't know what impacts the location of a fab)

CompuHacker 5y ago
As I understand it, you want inexpensive power and water. Bonus points for environmental stability over absolute temperature.
user568439 5y ago
Why should it be cold? This is necessary for data centers but for factories probably it’s much better to have your own solar powered energy
thehappypm 5y ago
Arizona is a place where, with enough investment (like the billions here) power can be extremely green and cheap, with solar. Needing a huge amount of air conditioning is not a problem when it coincides with the moment the sun is pouring huge amounts of energy into your solar array.
- zwirbl 5y ago
  this leaves out the issues with the large amounts of water needed for semiconductor fabrication, although another commenter noted that Arizona has pretty good water management (I guess this includes recycling?)
  - minhazm 5y ago
    > Globally, Intel is on track to achieve net positive water use by 2030. Today, in Arizona, we’re already at 95%. https://download.intel.com/newsroom/2021/manufacturing/Intel-in-AZ-Sustainability-Fact-Sheet.pdf https://download.intel.com/newsroom/2021/manufacturing/Intel...
    - lazide 5y ago
      This is PR. Water needs are local, except where it is explicitly part of the same watershed/supply system. 'Net positive' here means 'we help retain a bunch of water over there... <points to other side of state where no one lives and the water isn't captured well>, and use it over here <points to middle of extreme desert with greater outflows than inflows of water into all sources>', and we're net positive!
- raverbashing 5y ago
  If you can manage to build your solar as to shade your building, your AC costs will greatly diminish as well.
  - conductr 5y ago
    This is the first time I've heard this from someone besides me :) I am involved with an effort to plant arbors to shade homes in low income areas of my city so that residents can afford the A/C costs. A typical home we work on has no central HVAC and has 3 or 4 window units running non-stop 6+ months of the year (Texas). Vines are fast growing and shade makes a huge impact!
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      Awnings are friendly as well.
- cma 5y ago
  Semiconductor manufacturing needs constant power aside from AC though, it presumably doesn't stop at night due to high automation and the capital involved.
  - Jarwain 5y ago
    Ideally you'd overprovision with solar and use batteries to store the excess energy, to be used at night
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      Arizona is literally one of the best places in the world for solar & storage, they have an unbelievably reliable number of sunny days.
lvl100 5y ago
You don’t need a large constant source of water. It’s a bit like filling a very large swimming pool. They also already have plants down there and it works for them because AZ is surprisingly shielded from natural disasters. Also they can utilize solar power down there.
- Nbox9 5y ago
  > AZ Natural Disasters AZ suffers from heat waves, which are steadily getting worse over time. Last year in a heat wave Phoenix saw several days above 115F. A 115F heatwave is a natural disaster mitigated by air conditioning. Hopefully a heat wave doesn’t coincide with a 2020 Texas sized electrical blackout. This isn’t a massive problem now, but imagine how bad AZ heat waves will be by the end of his factories life.
  - KingMachiavelli 5y ago
    Sure but a chip fab is a giant flat building with lots of AC and plenty of solar panels. At this point you really can't rule out 115F heatwave anywhere since the PNW just had one.
  - clarkmoody 5y ago
    Usually a heat wave isn't accompanied by thick cloud cover that shades your solar panels.
    - pm90 5y ago
      It can kill your (human) staff though.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - cronix 5y ago
    Where do you propose to build, then? Alaska? I live near the massive Intel campuses in Hillsboro, OR. We rarely get above 100F, but we experienced the same several days of 115F+ weather this last June just before summer officially hit. Almost 200 people died in Oregon/Washington directly from that heatwave and up to 500 in BC, Canada[1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/08/pacific-northwest-heatwave-deaths https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/08/pacific-nort...
dragonelite 5y ago
You already need extreme climate and dust control don't think the location will matter that much.
newacct583 5y ago
You want to build them where you can staff them, and these fabs are going up next door to Intel's existing fabs in Chandler.
josaka 5y ago
I think it's because it's dry. Facilities guy in the semi plant I used to work in told me that their highest energy usage was when it was humid, not when it's hot or cold. Said the energy cost to cool the humid air to pull out water and then heat it back up to the fab's target temp was pretty massive.
- dv_dt 5y ago
  seems like you should be able to dump part of the waste heat back into the output air after the cooling stage.
jdshupe 5y ago
There were also a lot of Tax incentives for building in this location. The company I work for is doing the electrical work and all of our materials are tax free.
softfalcon 5y ago
Arizona has a few major things going for it: - lack of seismic activity - very cheap, flat, easily excavated land - rich history of fab production (see: Motorola) which provides the necessary city infra, construction groups, supply distribution to build such fabs - consistently dry climate that despite being hot, is easily controlled for humidity - numerous tax and subsidy enticements to do business there
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  >rich history of fab production I would rank this way higher. Clustering fabs together makes it much easier to hire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat... Intel, Microchip, NXP, TSMC and Entrepix all have plants in Arizona. As an antiexample, the Bay Area has every negative attribute you could hope to think of for basing a software company there, and yet everyone does it anyway, just for hiring.
  - softfalcon 5y ago
    Yeah, my points are in no particular order. Specifically avoided using numbered points for that reason. You’re right in that effective hiring is a major draw.

CompuHacker 5y ago

As I understand it, you want inexpensive power and water. Bonus points for environmental stability over absolute temperature.

user568439 5y ago

Why should it be cold? This is necessary for data centers but for factories probably it’s much better to have your own solar powered energy

thehappypm 5y ago

Arizona is a place where, with enough investment (like the billions here) power can be extremely green and cheap, with solar. Needing a huge amount of air conditioning is not a problem when it coincides with the moment the sun is pouring huge amounts of energy into your solar array.

zwirbl 5y ago
this leaves out the issues with the large amounts of water needed for semiconductor fabrication, although another commenter noted that Arizona has pretty good water management (I guess this includes recycling?)
- minhazm 5y ago
  > Globally, Intel is on track to achieve net positive water use by 2030. Today, in Arizona, we’re already at 95%. https://download.intel.com/newsroom/2021/manufacturing/Intel-in-AZ-Sustainability-Fact-Sheet.pdf https://download.intel.com/newsroom/2021/manufacturing/Intel...
  - lazide 5y ago
    This is PR. Water needs are local, except where it is explicitly part of the same watershed/supply system. 'Net positive' here means 'we help retain a bunch of water over there... <points to other side of state where no one lives and the water isn't captured well>, and use it over here <points to middle of extreme desert with greater outflows than inflows of water into all sources>', and we're net positive!
raverbashing 5y ago
If you can manage to build your solar as to shade your building, your AC costs will greatly diminish as well.
- conductr 5y ago
  This is the first time I've heard this from someone besides me :) I am involved with an effort to plant arbors to shade homes in low income areas of my city so that residents can afford the A/C costs. A typical home we work on has no central HVAC and has 3 or 4 window units running non-stop 6+ months of the year (Texas). Vines are fast growing and shade makes a huge impact!
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Awnings are friendly as well.
cma 5y ago
Semiconductor manufacturing needs constant power aside from AC though, it presumably doesn't stop at night due to high automation and the capital involved.
- Jarwain 5y ago
  Ideally you'd overprovision with solar and use batteries to store the excess energy, to be used at night
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    Arizona is literally one of the best places in the world for solar & storage, they have an unbelievably reliable number of sunny days.

lvl100 5y ago

You don’t need a large constant source of water. It’s a bit like filling a very large swimming pool. They also already have plants down there and it works for them because AZ is surprisingly shielded from natural disasters. Also they can utilize solar power down there.

Nbox9 5y ago
> AZ Natural Disasters AZ suffers from heat waves, which are steadily getting worse over time. Last year in a heat wave Phoenix saw several days above 115F. A 115F heatwave is a natural disaster mitigated by air conditioning. Hopefully a heat wave doesn’t coincide with a 2020 Texas sized electrical blackout. This isn’t a massive problem now, but imagine how bad AZ heat waves will be by the end of his factories life.
- KingMachiavelli 5y ago
  Sure but a chip fab is a giant flat building with lots of AC and plenty of solar panels. At this point you really can't rule out 115F heatwave anywhere since the PNW just had one.
- clarkmoody 5y ago
  Usually a heat wave isn't accompanied by thick cloud cover that shades your solar panels.
  - pm90 5y ago
    It can kill your (human) staff though.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- cronix 5y ago
  Where do you propose to build, then? Alaska? I live near the massive Intel campuses in Hillsboro, OR. We rarely get above 100F, but we experienced the same several days of 115F+ weather this last June just before summer officially hit. Almost 200 people died in Oregon/Washington directly from that heatwave and up to 500 in BC, Canada[1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/08/pacific-northwest-heatwave-deaths https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/08/pacific-nort...

dragonelite 5y ago

You already need extreme climate and dust control don't think the location will matter that much.

newacct583 5y ago

You want to build them where you can staff them, and these fabs are going up next door to Intel's existing fabs in Chandler.

josaka 5y ago

I think it's because it's dry. Facilities guy in the semi plant I used to work in told me that their highest energy usage was when it was humid, not when it's hot or cold. Said the energy cost to cool the humid air to pull out water and then heat it back up to the fab's target temp was pretty massive.

dv_dt 5y ago
seems like you should be able to dump part of the waste heat back into the output air after the cooling stage.

jdshupe 5y ago

There were also a lot of Tax incentives for building in this location. The company I work for is doing the electrical work and all of our materials are tax free.

softfalcon 5y ago

Arizona has a few major things going for it: - lack of seismic activity - very cheap, flat, easily excavated land - rich history of fab production (see: Motorola) which provides the necessary city infra, construction groups, supply distribution to build such fabs - consistently dry climate that despite being hot, is easily controlled for humidity - numerous tax and subsidy enticements to do business there

sbierwagen 5y ago
>rich history of fab production I would rank this way higher. Clustering fabs together makes it much easier to hire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat... Intel, Microchip, NXP, TSMC and Entrepix all have plants in Arizona. As an antiexample, the Bay Area has every negative attribute you could hope to think of for basing a software company there, and yet everyone does it anyway, just for hiring.
- softfalcon 5y ago
  Yeah, my points are in no particular order. Specifically avoided using numbered points for that reason. You’re right in that effective hiring is a major draw.