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The unplanned yet avoidable fall of Afghanistan has been an epic disaster of foreign policy that will hurt American credibility for decades, as it allows a resu

The unplanned yet avoidable fall of Afghanistan has been an epic disaster of foreign policy that will hurt American credibility for decades, as it allows a resurgence of various terrorist groups and spawns a new wave of human rights crises. There has been a lot written about it, particularly from independent media - I recommend this recent interview of Paul Bergen by Sam Harris as an overview (https://samharris.org/podcasts/258-fall-afghanistan/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/258-fall-afghanistan/). To me it is unconscionable that dissent can be punished and deterred in this manner, especially in America. The optics of it are damning and moreover it is actually unethical.

redis_mlc 5y ago
I study war, and the general sentiment is that Bagram should have been retained by the US since Afghanistan is land-locked, which makes future intervention very difficult. In both Somalia and Afghanistan, the US did not understand or respect Islamic practises, so alienated the locals, losing hearts and minds - you don't kick in doors in the middle of the night and confront families, fly around in helicopters showing the soles of your shoes, drone non-combatants, etc. Beyond that, not sure what the US was doing about mining for the past 2 decades.
redstone_tech 5y ago
>Sam Harris >independent media >https://samharris.org/ https://samharris.org/ Of course an Islamophobe like Sam Harris was happy with the invasion of Afghanistan and got VERY upset when the US left. Not only does he want the murdering of Afghan Muslims to persist, but he also has no issue with a group of rapists and murderers ruling the country and wrecking havoc while militant atheists like himself maintain their interests in the region. Blood is not only on the mercenaries' hands who participated in the war, but also on people like Sam Harris who strongly propagate for it and try to shift public opinion and the political climate to return to war. How many innocent men, women and children must suffer to make people like Sam Harris happy? Likely no limit. >To me it is unconscionable that dissent can be punished and deterred in this manner, especially in America. The optics of it are damning and moreover it is actually unethical. It's ironic that someone who wants more Afghan Muslims to die is lecturing people about what's unethical.
- findalex 5y ago
  >someone who wants more Afghan Muslims to die I've never seen anyone impugn motive so recklessly.
  - redstone_tech 5y ago
    >I've never seen anyone impugn motive so recklessly. It's hard to see it any other way, because that's essentially what the US and its allies have been doing. You could say another alternative would be that he sees the killing of Afghan Muslims as an unfortunate consequence of spreading secular democracy, but still necessary. But that doesn't make any sense, it's clear that the Afghans don't want secularism, so what should the US do? Wipe out every element that is anti-secular? Maybe by keep bombing children in Quran schools, like the US and its allies have done in the past? That's equally inconsiderate of Muslim Afghans lives, is it not?
dragonwriter 5y ago
> The unplanned yet avoidable fall of Afghanistan has been an epic disaster of foreign policy that will hurt American credibility for decades It was not unplanned (a surrender was signed during the Trump Administration, well before the withdrawal was completed), nor has it been avoidable at least since the war of choice (and aggression) in Iraq; whether it was avoidable without that is debatable, but ultimately irrelevant, since the invasion only occurred because the Administration was boxed in politically and couldn't use 9/11 as an excuse for their preconceived war on Iraq without first making a show of going after al-Qaeda where their leadership was known to be.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  I agree with your characterization of the Iraq invasion and the politics around it. However, I disagree with your claim that the fall of Afghanistan was planned and unavoidable for the following reasons: - The Trump deal was conditional on the Taliban meeting requirements they ended up not meeting (supporting other terrorist groups), which would have invalidated that agreement. Additionally that agreement was very high-level with details left open-ended, and it could have been implemented via a safer, phased withdrawal. I say this as someone who recognizes Trump could also have led the US to this same (or far worse) outcome. - The Biden administration had every authority to change course from Trump. Clearly Biden had no problem doing so with a list of immediate executive orders, and he could have made different choices here. In fact he already did, since he withdrew by August rather than May (a departure from the Trump-Taliban agreement). - Biden repeatedly claimed that there was no way the Taliban could overwhelm the Afghan army, but that's what happened. This seems like an unplanned outcome (the alternative is that Biden lied to the US public and the world). - Other allies like Germany were also blindsided by the unilateral choice to withdraw as the US did, which left them scrambling to figure out a safe exit for their people and other collaborators. - The US could have left a small force of 2500 to help keep the peace - that seems like a small price to keep the Afghanistan government together for another generation. - The US could have taken stronger action historically against Pakistan, which has provided a safe space for various terrorist groups to rebuild, including both Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Even doing so now, while continuing military support of the Afghan government, could have set up for a safer future withdrawal.

redis_mlc 5y ago

I study war, and the general sentiment is that Bagram should have been retained by the US since Afghanistan is land-locked, which makes future intervention very difficult. In both Somalia and Afghanistan, the US did not understand or respect Islamic practises, so alienated the locals, losing hearts and minds - you don't kick in doors in the middle of the night and confront families, fly around in helicopters showing the soles of your shoes, drone non-combatants, etc. Beyond that, not sure what the US was doing about mining for the past 2 decades.

redstone_tech 5y ago

>Sam Harris >independent media >https://samharris.org/ https://samharris.org/ Of course an Islamophobe like Sam Harris was happy with the invasion of Afghanistan and got VERY upset when the US left. Not only does he want the murdering of Afghan Muslims to persist, but he also has no issue with a group of rapists and murderers ruling the country and wrecking havoc while militant atheists like himself maintain their interests in the region. Blood is not only on the mercenaries' hands who participated in the war, but also on people like Sam Harris who strongly propagate for it and try to shift public opinion and the political climate to return to war. How many innocent men, women and children must suffer to make people like Sam Harris happy? Likely no limit. >To me it is unconscionable that dissent can be punished and deterred in this manner, especially in America. The optics of it are damning and moreover it is actually unethical. It's ironic that someone who wants more Afghan Muslims to die is lecturing people about what's unethical.

findalex 5y ago
>someone who wants more Afghan Muslims to die I've never seen anyone impugn motive so recklessly.
- redstone_tech 5y ago
  >I've never seen anyone impugn motive so recklessly. It's hard to see it any other way, because that's essentially what the US and its allies have been doing. You could say another alternative would be that he sees the killing of Afghan Muslims as an unfortunate consequence of spreading secular democracy, but still necessary. But that doesn't make any sense, it's clear that the Afghans don't want secularism, so what should the US do? Wipe out every element that is anti-secular? Maybe by keep bombing children in Quran schools, like the US and its allies have done in the past? That's equally inconsiderate of Muslim Afghans lives, is it not?

dragonwriter 5y ago

> The unplanned yet avoidable fall of Afghanistan has been an epic disaster of foreign policy that will hurt American credibility for decades It was not unplanned (a surrender was signed during the Trump Administration, well before the withdrawal was completed), nor has it been avoidable at least since the war of choice (and aggression) in Iraq; whether it was avoidable without that is debatable, but ultimately irrelevant, since the invasion only occurred because the Administration was boxed in politically and couldn't use 9/11 as an excuse for their preconceived war on Iraq without first making a show of going after al-Qaeda where their leadership was known to be.

throwawaysea 5y ago
I agree with your characterization of the Iraq invasion and the politics around it. However, I disagree with your claim that the fall of Afghanistan was planned and unavoidable for the following reasons: - The Trump deal was conditional on the Taliban meeting requirements they ended up not meeting (supporting other terrorist groups), which would have invalidated that agreement. Additionally that agreement was very high-level with details left open-ended, and it could have been implemented via a safer, phased withdrawal. I say this as someone who recognizes Trump could also have led the US to this same (or far worse) outcome. - The Biden administration had every authority to change course from Trump. Clearly Biden had no problem doing so with a list of immediate executive orders, and he could have made different choices here. In fact he already did, since he withdrew by August rather than May (a departure from the Trump-Taliban agreement). - Biden repeatedly claimed that there was no way the Taliban could overwhelm the Afghan army, but that's what happened. This seems like an unplanned outcome (the alternative is that Biden lied to the US public and the world). - Other allies like Germany were also blindsided by the unilateral choice to withdraw as the US did, which left them scrambling to figure out a safe exit for their people and other collaborators. - The US could have left a small force of 2500 to help keep the peace - that seems like a small price to keep the Afghanistan government together for another generation. - The US could have taken stronger action historically against Pakistan, which has provided a safe space for various terrorist groups to rebuild, including both Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Even doing so now, while continuing military support of the Afghan government, could have set up for a safer future withdrawal.