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> US companies are more independent from the US government than Chinese companies are from the Chinese government. It's not just a small difference. Facebook d

> US companies are more independent from the US government than Chinese companies are from the Chinese government. It's not just a small difference. Facebook doesn't give data over to the US gov, sometimes not even law enforcement requests They do sometimes, but rarely. Contrast that with data laws in China, there is no need for the state to ask for data, it's already being handed over to them.

trasz 5y ago
Erm, what? We know Facebook and Google cooperate with NSA since Snowden.
- fortuna86 5y ago
  They reject the vast majority of gov requests, even some from law enforcement. China doesn't even ask before taking said data. That's the difference.
  - trasz 5y ago
    Requests from law enforcement are the only ones they can reject. NSA doesn’t ask. And you won’t know, thanks to gag orders and secret courts. So again, where’s the difference?
    - fortuna86 5y ago
      Wow that's a lot of misrepresentation. There is a secret court called FISA, which we all know about and therefore isn't secret. NSA collects on everyone but by breaking in, which while not ideal (and might not be legal) is not the same as an information sharing agreement, which is what we are discussing. And of course America still has laws about such things, even if they aren't always followed. Domestic state intel (FBI, DHS, etc.) have 0 privileged access to American companies and their data. In China, the law is literally "the state doesn't even need to ask, it's just given". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_Peopl... Do you honestly not see the difference?
      - fortuna86 5y ago
        Not to mention the Chinese state is using this data provided by "private companies" (in China increasingly there is no such thing) to target their own citizens for harassment, arrest, and worse: https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-targets-xinjiangs-muslims https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-t...
      - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
        Recall that the NSA was given an unconstitutional[0] general warrant in secret by the FISA court to spy on all Verizon customers.[1] > Do you honestly not see the difference? The difference I see is that there has been extensive, proven, unconstitutional surveillance of Americans by US intelligence agencies, but there is, to date, no evidence that Huawei has spied on Americans. 0. Read about "writs of assistance," a type of general warrant used by the British in colonial America, and which inspired the 4th Amendment's ban on general warrants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-reco...
        fortuna86 5y ago
        > The difference I see is that there has been extensive, proven, unconstitutional surveillance of Americans by US intelligence agencies, but there is, to date, no evidence that Huawei has spied on Americans. I can't tell if you are hopelessly native or arguing with typical cynical flippancy. Huawei is a global tool for Chinese espionage. And while global espionage occurs in the US, they don't compel US companies to help them. In China, there is literal legislation that compels every Chinese company to treat their data as property of the state. Either you don't understand that difference, or you are so hopelessly partisan in the matter you'll argue the cultural revolution was fake news. > Recall that the NSA was given an unconstitutional Yes it was a giant scandal and they have since stopped. Just a story wouldn't even be a story in China, and such actions continue today, legally. > Read about "writs of assistance," a type of general warrant used by the British in colonial America Oh ffs. You never answered my previous question btw, does your work involve Chinese state industry in anyway?
- fortuna86 5y ago
  > Erm, what? We know Facebook and Google cooperate with NSA since Snowden. NSA collected by breaking their security (not good), but that's not the same as handing over data. Both of these companies vehemently deny any kind of information sharing agreement with the government (and no evidence of such a program has ever been made public).

trasz 5y ago

Erm, what? We know Facebook and Google cooperate with NSA since Snowden.

fortuna86 5y ago
They reject the vast majority of gov requests, even some from law enforcement. China doesn't even ask before taking said data. That's the difference.
- trasz 5y ago
  Requests from law enforcement are the only ones they can reject. NSA doesn’t ask. And you won’t know, thanks to gag orders and secret courts. So again, where’s the difference?
  - fortuna86 5y ago
    Wow that's a lot of misrepresentation. There is a secret court called FISA, which we all know about and therefore isn't secret. NSA collects on everyone but by breaking in, which while not ideal (and might not be legal) is not the same as an information sharing agreement, which is what we are discussing. And of course America still has laws about such things, even if they aren't always followed. Domestic state intel (FBI, DHS, etc.) have 0 privileged access to American companies and their data. In China, the law is literally "the state doesn't even need to ask, it's just given". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_Peopl... Do you honestly not see the difference?
    - fortuna86 5y ago
      Not to mention the Chinese state is using this data provided by "private companies" (in China increasingly there is no such thing) to target their own citizens for harassment, arrest, and worse: https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-targets-xinjiangs-muslims https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-t...
    - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
      Recall that the NSA was given an unconstitutional[0] general warrant in secret by the FISA court to spy on all Verizon customers.[1] > Do you honestly not see the difference? The difference I see is that there has been extensive, proven, unconstitutional surveillance of Americans by US intelligence agencies, but there is, to date, no evidence that Huawei has spied on Americans. 0. Read about "writs of assistance," a type of general warrant used by the British in colonial America, and which inspired the 4th Amendment's ban on general warrants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-reco...
      - fortuna86 5y ago
        > The difference I see is that there has been extensive, proven, unconstitutional surveillance of Americans by US intelligence agencies, but there is, to date, no evidence that Huawei has spied on Americans. I can't tell if you are hopelessly native or arguing with typical cynical flippancy. Huawei is a global tool for Chinese espionage. And while global espionage occurs in the US, they don't compel US companies to help them. In China, there is literal legislation that compels every Chinese company to treat their data as property of the state. Either you don't understand that difference, or you are so hopelessly partisan in the matter you'll argue the cultural revolution was fake news. > Recall that the NSA was given an unconstitutional Yes it was a giant scandal and they have since stopped. Just a story wouldn't even be a story in China, and such actions continue today, legally. > Read about "writs of assistance," a type of general warrant used by the British in colonial America Oh ffs. You never answered my previous question btw, does your work involve Chinese state industry in anyway?
fortuna86 5y ago
> Erm, what? We know Facebook and Google cooperate with NSA since Snowden. NSA collected by breaking their security (not good), but that's not the same as handing over data. Both of these companies vehemently deny any kind of information sharing agreement with the government (and no evidence of such a program has ever been made public).