5 ms·

Having a screen blast your eyes 2” away is only ok for so long. Perhaps some can handle this but I cannot possibly imagine this is good for most people at scale

Having a screen blast your eyes 2” away is only ok for so long. Perhaps some can handle this but I cannot possibly imagine this is good for most people at scale. There’s already concern about eye problems due to cell phones in youth, and that’s at least 6-10” away from one’s eyes and with other light coming in. The resolution isn’t there yet compared to my 4-5k monitors for text, but clearly will get there in the future. For now I don’t see what advantages it really gives me compared to a normal monitor in the real world, especially if I’m just coding. The exception would be if I were on something like an airplane — being able to look forward is a big deal here. Personally it makes me feel a bit nauseous, particularly if there’s any movement (I get motion sick easily in VR but not normally in real life). My understanding is that about 20% of the population is like this and nothing is known to prevent it. There are cool things about VR that I really enjoy (particular things like Google street view) but I think it’s way over hyped, and possibly dystopian depending on what people are leaving behind.

jiggawatts 5y ago
The physical distance from the glass to your eyeball is irrelevant. What is relevant is the distance to the focal plane. For typical screens, the focal distance and the screen distance are obviously identical. For VR systems, they're very different. The last one I tried had a focal plane that was about 4 meters away. This makes it better than typical screens! However, the low resolution is an issue. I've found that I get sore eyes if I use a low-resolutions screen. This is because my eyes try to focus, fail, and keep "hunting" by changing focus back and forth looking for the point of sharp focus -- but it's never there. This is why all of my displays are 4K. For VR because of the large field of view, the required resolution is at least 8K per eye or equivalent. Ideally a "fake" 16K using foveated rendering.
- Retric 5y ago
  Focal distance is only part of the issue another is is consistency. Using a headset for 8 hours means your eyes are constantly focusing within a very narrow range of distances for 8 hours which isn’t good. Your brain might be somewhat fooled when looking at a wall vs a VR window, but your eyes don’t change focal distance. Similarly VR has a narrow range of possible brightness, this is less of an issue but can also cause problems long term.
  - ketzo 5y ago
    Yeah, but again, that's an issue that is shared with physical computer screens as well. It's obviously easier to look up from a physical screen and look around to change up your focal distance, but frankly, this is something that people already forget to do -- and it's just as easy to do in VR if you've got something in the far distance to look at.
    - Retric 5y ago
      Looking at something “far away” in VR doesn’t change your eyes physical focal distance. You need to physically remove the headset to rest your eyes.
      - ketzo 5y ago
        Huh, okay, after some very cursory googling it looks like you're right. I was misunderstanding how VR focal distance worked. Then your point definitely stands: taking off a headset in order to mix up your focal distance does sound like a pain.
      - taylorius 5y ago
        There are lightfield displays that can synthesise arbitrary focal planes, but they're still experimental afaik.
        Filligree 5y ago
        There are consistent rumors they'll appear in the Quest 3. I rather doubt it, but if we're lucky it's something they're working on. A generation or two after, maybe?
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Isn't the focal distance to your monitor also static? Well mostly static, since you do move around a bit.
    - 5y ago
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  It's not just the resolution. Lenses get dirty, and you get other optical artifacts (god rays, chromatic aberration, screendoor effect) that mess with the quality of the picture and create eye strain.
sp332 5y ago
The focus issue is not that things are too close (as jiggawatts covers) but that the focal plane never changes. You might want to specifically do some eye exercises by focusing on objects at different distances outside of VR.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
caslon 5y ago
> Personally it makes me feel a bit nauseous, particularly if there’s any movement (I get motion sick easily in VR but not normally in real life). My understanding is that about 20% of the population is like this and nothing is known to prevent it. This is almost always one of two things: * A low or unsteady framerate or tracking * Lack of spending twenty minutes in it to teach your body to cope with the aforementioned low or unsteady framerate or tracking The Quest 2 won't drop below 90hz if in any productivity app, and you can even turn it up to 120hz (it can handle games at 120hz; a productivity app won't put any stress on the hardware), so there isn't really the opportunity for nausea. It really does sound like you've only used Cardboard or Daydream, since the only thing you're listing is Street View. There's nothing wrong with Cardboard and Daydream, but they're 3DoF and you were lucky if it would hit 60hz consistently. They're a box for nausea. Even the original Vive (still an admirable headset, although pretty rough these days) is significantly below the state of the art enough that judgements about VR as a whole can't justifiably be made.
- sp332 5y ago
  VR gear has improved dramatically, but there are some things you can do to make yourself more comfortable. https://web.archive.org/web/20190813004505/http://elevr.com:80/yoga-for-building-vr-tolerance/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190813004505/http://elevr.com:... I think the most important piece of advice is to take a break right away when you're feeling bad instead of trying to push through.
- azinman2 5y ago
  I have a quest 2, and have put it at 120hz. I still get motion sick. It’s not just frame rate. Movement in real life involves more inputs than just eyes.. you feel it in your vestibular system for example. Here we have a disconnect between motion in the eyes and the rest of your body. And for many, such as myself, that results in motion sickness.
  - _flux 5y ago
    Do I understand correct that you don't get motion sickness if standing still but looking around—when there is no disconnect in motion? This is the use case for productivity apps. In my understanding it is extremely rare to experience VR motion sickness if the motion in VR matches the motion in IRL.
anentropic 5y ago
Seems like you'd have to be able to touch type to do this
fouric 5y ago
> Having a screen blast your eyes 2” away is only ok for so long. Distance isn't really a factor here, at least not as far as total light entering your eyes goes - a 1W/m^2 source 10cm from your eyes causes the same amount of light to enter as a 16W/m^2 source 40cm away. What matters, as others have pointed out, is the distance between your eyes and the focal plane.

jiggawatts 5y ago

The physical distance from the glass to your eyeball is irrelevant. What is relevant is the distance to the focal plane. For typical screens, the focal distance and the screen distance are obviously identical. For VR systems, they're very different. The last one I tried had a focal plane that was about 4 meters away. This makes it better than typical screens! However, the low resolution is an issue. I've found that I get sore eyes if I use a low-resolutions screen. This is because my eyes try to focus, fail, and keep "hunting" by changing focus back and forth looking for the point of sharp focus -- but it's never there. This is why all of my displays are 4K. For VR because of the large field of view, the required resolution is at least 8K per eye or equivalent. Ideally a "fake" 16K using foveated rendering.

Retric 5y ago
Focal distance is only part of the issue another is is consistency. Using a headset for 8 hours means your eyes are constantly focusing within a very narrow range of distances for 8 hours which isn’t good. Your brain might be somewhat fooled when looking at a wall vs a VR window, but your eyes don’t change focal distance. Similarly VR has a narrow range of possible brightness, this is less of an issue but can also cause problems long term.
- ketzo 5y ago
  Yeah, but again, that's an issue that is shared with physical computer screens as well. It's obviously easier to look up from a physical screen and look around to change up your focal distance, but frankly, this is something that people already forget to do -- and it's just as easy to do in VR if you've got something in the far distance to look at.
  - Retric 5y ago
    Looking at something “far away” in VR doesn’t change your eyes physical focal distance. You need to physically remove the headset to rest your eyes.
    - ketzo 5y ago
      Huh, okay, after some very cursory googling it looks like you're right. I was misunderstanding how VR focal distance worked. Then your point definitely stands: taking off a headset in order to mix up your focal distance does sound like a pain.
    - taylorius 5y ago
      There are lightfield displays that can synthesise arbitrary focal planes, but they're still experimental afaik.
      - Filligree 5y ago
        There are consistent rumors they'll appear in the Quest 3. I rather doubt it, but if we're lucky it's something they're working on. A generation or two after, maybe?
- colordrops 5y ago
  Isn't the focal distance to your monitor also static? Well mostly static, since you do move around a bit.
  - 5y ago
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
It's not just the resolution. Lenses get dirty, and you get other optical artifacts (god rays, chromatic aberration, screendoor effect) that mess with the quality of the picture and create eye strain.

sp332 5y ago

The focus issue is not that things are too close (as jiggawatts covers) but that the focal plane never changes. You might want to specifically do some eye exercises by focusing on objects at different distances outside of VR.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

caslon 5y ago

> Personally it makes me feel a bit nauseous, particularly if there’s any movement (I get motion sick easily in VR but not normally in real life). My understanding is that about 20% of the population is like this and nothing is known to prevent it. This is almost always one of two things: * A low or unsteady framerate or tracking * Lack of spending twenty minutes in it to teach your body to cope with the aforementioned low or unsteady framerate or tracking The Quest 2 won't drop below 90hz if in any productivity app, and you can even turn it up to 120hz (it can handle games at 120hz; a productivity app won't put any stress on the hardware), so there isn't really the opportunity for nausea. It really does sound like you've only used Cardboard or Daydream, since the only thing you're listing is Street View. There's nothing wrong with Cardboard and Daydream, but they're 3DoF and you were lucky if it would hit 60hz consistently. They're a box for nausea. Even the original Vive (still an admirable headset, although pretty rough these days) is significantly below the state of the art enough that judgements about VR as a whole can't justifiably be made.

sp332 5y ago
VR gear has improved dramatically, but there are some things you can do to make yourself more comfortable. https://web.archive.org/web/20190813004505/http://elevr.com:80/yoga-for-building-vr-tolerance/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190813004505/http://elevr.com:... I think the most important piece of advice is to take a break right away when you're feeling bad instead of trying to push through.
azinman2 5y ago
I have a quest 2, and have put it at 120hz. I still get motion sick. It’s not just frame rate. Movement in real life involves more inputs than just eyes.. you feel it in your vestibular system for example. Here we have a disconnect between motion in the eyes and the rest of your body. And for many, such as myself, that results in motion sickness.
- _flux 5y ago
  Do I understand correct that you don't get motion sickness if standing still but looking around—when there is no disconnect in motion? This is the use case for productivity apps. In my understanding it is extremely rare to experience VR motion sickness if the motion in VR matches the motion in IRL.

anentropic 5y ago

Seems like you'd have to be able to touch type to do this

fouric 5y ago

> Having a screen blast your eyes 2” away is only ok for so long. Distance isn't really a factor here, at least not as far as total light entering your eyes goes - a 1W/m^2 source 10cm from your eyes causes the same amount of light to enter as a 16W/m^2 source 40cm away. What matters, as others have pointed out, is the distance between your eyes and the focal plane.