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> The government does not by any means micromanage or control even a tiny fraction of companies in China This is a straw man argument. No one accused China of
by cletus 5y ago
> The government does not by any means micromanage or control even a tiny fraction of companies in China
This is a straw man argument. No one accused China of micro-managing companies. It's never that overt. For example of how this works in the real world, look at Vladimir Putin in Russia and the case of Mikhail Khodorkovsky [1]. He was, at the time, one of the most richest and powerful oligarchs in Russia. By imprisoning him, Putin sent the message that no other oligarch was safe and if they wanted to continue to exist they had to fall in line, which they did.
> How tightly connected is Silicon Valley to the US government?
I'll assume good intent here and that this isn't simply "butwhataboutism". US companies need to obey US laws of course. This includes, for example, the FISA court nonsense. You can argue that Chinese companies are simply following Chinese law. While that's technically true, it's a question of degree.
US companies are more independent from the US government than Chinese companies are from the Chinese government.
> First of all, these partnerships were not theft.
I beg to differ. For example, look at the case of ASMC and Sinovel [2].
> ... and as of last year, Tesla was the top-selling EV car manufacturer in China
Now to much this year [3].
> China is one of the largest markets for Boeing and Airbus.
Yes, because China currently cannot make commercial aircraft at scale to compete with Boeing and Airbus. I guarantee you that's a problem they're working on and they're going to be aided by the boards of both companies giving away the keys to the kingdom for access to that market.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky
[2]: https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/25/technology/china-us-sinovel-theft-conviction/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/25/technology/china-us-sinovel...
[3]: https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/10/investing/tesla-china-sales/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/10/investing/tesla-china-sales/i...
- fortuna86 5y ago> US companies are more independent from the US government than Chinese companies are from the Chinese government. It's not just a small difference. Facebook doesn't give data over to the US gov, sometimes not even law enforcement requests They do sometimes, but rarely. Contrast that with data laws in China, there is no need for the state to ask for data, it's already being handed over to them.
- trasz 5y agoErm, what? We know Facebook and Google cooperate with NSA since Snowden.
- fortuna86 5y agoThey reject the vast majority of gov requests, even some from law enforcement. China doesn't even ask before taking said data. That's the difference.
- trasz 5y agoRequests from law enforcement are the only ones they can reject. NSA doesn’t ask. And you won’t know, thanks to gag orders and secret courts. So again, where’s the difference?
- fortuna86 5y agoWow that's a lot of misrepresentation. There is a secret court called FISA, which we all know about and therefore isn't secret. NSA collects on everyone but by breaking in, which while not ideal (and might not be legal) is not the same as an information sharing agreement, which is what we are discussing. And of course America still has laws about such things, even if they aren't always followed. Domestic state intel (FBI, DHS, etc.) have 0 privileged access to American companies and their data. In China, the law is literally "the state doesn't even need to ask, it's just given". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersecurity_Law_of_the_Peopl... Do you honestly not see the difference?
- fortuna86 5y agoNot to mention the Chinese state is using this data provided by "private companies" (in China increasingly there is no such thing) to target their own citizens for harassment, arrest, and worse: https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-targets-xinjiangs-muslims https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-t...