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I think those that want the US medical system to remain private are being extremely short sighted in not finding a way to fix this problem. They can either comp

I think those that want the US medical system to remain private are being extremely short sighted in not finding a way to fix this problem. They can either compromise today and keep a smaller amount of profits going forever, or they can extract maximum profits and increase the risk of a political change outlawing their entire company. It seems from the outside that they’re choosing the latter.

techsupporter 5y ago
> It seems from the outside that they’re choosing the latter. I agree, but I think the reason why is "it won't happen to me" syndrome. Sure, other companies or people might get regulated out of existence, but in the short term maximizing profits and hoping or expecting to see the boulder rolling downhill in time to get out of the way is seen as the better plan. Because if you're right, you get to keep a lot of money. And if you're wrong, well, you don't think you'll be wrong. This seems to be the thinking of our entire economic system in the United States. Grab as much money as humanly possible, regardless of any future consequences, even if the very act of the grabbing increases the odds of a much worse outcome.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  I think it's a bit of that, and the execs are aware that they'll always land on their feet, even if their company and workers won't. After all, if none of the bankers from 2008 went to jail, what does a Blue Cross VP have to fear?
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    None of the executives in the tobacco industry ever went to jail. I'm not even sure any of them ever felt any personal consequences, at least not of any lasting nature.
syshum 5y ago
I think people in the US that still believe the US medical System is private are delusional I want a private health system, one with actual market economics not with the hand of government poking and prodding at every turn making things worse. Sadly the free market shipped sailed away decades ago. What we have today is terrible system of heavy government regulation, poor subsidies, "insurance" that is not really insurance, combined with the US health system bearing most of the RnD costs for the world. Those that are opposing complete government take over already lost they just do not know it yet and are just prolonging the pain. Personally I say let it happen, and watch as it collapses because a US Federal run health system will be atrocious, the US Federal government is incompetent and corrupt, but it seems many citizens want a health system run by corrupt incompetence. So lets to it. then we can get way back to a free market once the people learn the lesson the hard way.
- sharemywin 5y ago
  I think the best systems in the world right now are hybrid. public options with private companies to fill in the gaps. When you say free market do you mean with insurance? or without? The problem with health care and free market is the incentive don't line up. Most of health care costs are accumulated at the end. so you can't really do loans. your left with some kind of upfront payment plan(aka insurance) and their incentive to maximize premium and minimize expenses(aka paying for your healthcare) Then you run into the problem that you need private watchdogs to keep an eye on the insurance companies and rate them. Problem is the smaller they are the more easily corruptible they are.
  - syshum 5y ago
    >>When you say free market do you mean with insurance? or without? Either I would like to so innovation in that space where today the government is stiffing that. For example there was a Doctor in Kansas I believe that attempted to open a Medical Coop where families would pay a monthly fee and then get access to the facility for their general medical needs.This was deemed to violate medical billing regulations so he was forced to shut it down. Then there is walmart, even a massive company like that could not navigate the regulatory burden to offer small clinics where a person could see an RN for minor medical conditions. They could not figure out how to comply with the regulations and make is profitable. There is a reason ALOT of the medical services (Doctors offices, Networks, and Hospitals) are actually NON-profits. People believe that the "profit motive" is the reason for high costs, when in reality the delivery of medical services outside of Pharmaceuticals and devices, is already non-profit As to insurance would also like to see a return of actual insurance. We we call "health insurance" is not really insurance. Insurance is about risk pooling to absorb known but unlikely events. Insurance that covers all medical expenses (i.e comprehensive coverage) is not insurance. My Auto Insurance does not cover oil changes, and my Home owners insurance does not cover replacing my HVAC system so why does my health insurance cover my annual checkup, and when I have a cold???? >>Most of health care costs are accumulated at the end. That is not an example of the incentives not lining up, and we have a solution for that, a solution I would like see expanded but HSA are designed for that.
macksd 5y ago
I feel a great frustration by those who argue against healthcare reform in the US, because most of the arguments against a socialized system resonate with me, but they also seem to be arguments against the current system. I would be concerned about moral hazard leading to people not taking care of their own health. And yet, America has a disproportionately bad problem with weight and cardiovascular health. I get a discount for not smoking, sure, but I don't get a discount for going to the gym multiple times a week and adjusting my diet to keep my weight goals. I seem to be sharing a risk pool with a lot of very willingly unhealthy people. I would be concerned about a DMV-like experience when trying to take care of my health care, except, that's what we have now. Bad incentives are created for providers, for insurers, and really it's all of them against me. And it's hardly a free market when there's still effectively a complete lack of transparency over pricing, and I can't very well shop around for where the ambulance should take me. I'm very pro-immigration as long as we have some security / documentation process that people follow that we actually enforce, because I don't want a social healthcare system that just gets abused by people who have no intention of ever being a formal part of the system that funds it. Except we already have a drain on hospitals in many states where they have to provide life-saving care but will never get reimbursed for it. And that's exactly what Romney's major argument was in defense of his state's healthcare law, but Republicans ripped him to shreds over it. I just don't understand what Republicans are arguing for here because the current system is not remotely giving any of the benefits of a free market and that doesn't seem to be changing any time soon. If the current system is privately-run healthcare, why is everyone so convinced that the vaccine is a government conspiracy? It seems to me we don't have either ideal, so we're stuck with a half-measure that isn't really working for anyone but insurers.
- syshum 5y ago
  >>> but I don't get a discount for going to the gym multiple times a week and adjusting my diet to keep my weight goals. I seem to be sharing a risk pool with a lot of very willingly unhealthy people. Government prevents that, the very people that push for government run healthcare, pushed to ensure all persons pay the same rates. The only discounts allowed by law are for Smoking. Your employer can not legally discount your health plan for anything other than smoking. There are some loops holes for "health incentives" billed as bonus' >>If the current system is privately-run healthcare, Its not.
cratermoon 5y ago
It's been pretty normal for a while for private industry to extract maximum profits for as long as possible while delaying change. See for example the tobacco industry.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  The Tobacco industry knew that their industry was doomed. It's coldly rational, if a bit sociopathic, to decide to extract maximum value from your industry before what you perceive as an inevitable decline at the expense of your customers health. The oil industry is in a similar situation now, IMO. The private health care industry is not in such a situation. There is no guarantee that socialized healthcare is the future for America. But the more and more they attempt to extract from consumers per year, the more likely they make it that socialized medicine will happen here.
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    > There is no guarantee that socialized healthcare is the future for America The private health insurance industry in the US is doomed. Whether or not the outcome is "socialized medicine" or some other form of universal healthcare coverage is beside the point.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      I don’t think current polling bears that out. If you look at any questions that imply or explicitly state that universal healthcare will eliminate their insurance, then those questions poll deeply underwater. Furthermore, I don’t think anything political like this is pre-ordained.
      - cratermoon 5y ago
        It's not the polls or politics that matter, it's the economics.

techsupporter 5y ago

> It seems from the outside that they’re choosing the latter. I agree, but I think the reason why is "it won't happen to me" syndrome. Sure, other companies or people might get regulated out of existence, but in the short term maximizing profits and hoping or expecting to see the boulder rolling downhill in time to get out of the way is seen as the better plan. Because if you're right, you get to keep a lot of money. And if you're wrong, well, you don't think you'll be wrong. This seems to be the thinking of our entire economic system in the United States. Grab as much money as humanly possible, regardless of any future consequences, even if the very act of the grabbing increases the odds of a much worse outcome.

ashtonkem 5y ago
I think it's a bit of that, and the execs are aware that they'll always land on their feet, even if their company and workers won't. After all, if none of the bankers from 2008 went to jail, what does a Blue Cross VP have to fear?
- cratermoon 5y ago
  None of the executives in the tobacco industry ever went to jail. I'm not even sure any of them ever felt any personal consequences, at least not of any lasting nature.

syshum 5y ago

I think people in the US that still believe the US medical System is private are delusional I want a private health system, one with actual market economics not with the hand of government poking and prodding at every turn making things worse. Sadly the free market shipped sailed away decades ago. What we have today is terrible system of heavy government regulation, poor subsidies, "insurance" that is not really insurance, combined with the US health system bearing most of the RnD costs for the world. Those that are opposing complete government take over already lost they just do not know it yet and are just prolonging the pain. Personally I say let it happen, and watch as it collapses because a US Federal run health system will be atrocious, the US Federal government is incompetent and corrupt, but it seems many citizens want a health system run by corrupt incompetence. So lets to it. then we can get way back to a free market once the people learn the lesson the hard way.

sharemywin 5y ago
I think the best systems in the world right now are hybrid. public options with private companies to fill in the gaps. When you say free market do you mean with insurance? or without? The problem with health care and free market is the incentive don't line up. Most of health care costs are accumulated at the end. so you can't really do loans. your left with some kind of upfront payment plan(aka insurance) and their incentive to maximize premium and minimize expenses(aka paying for your healthcare) Then you run into the problem that you need private watchdogs to keep an eye on the insurance companies and rate them. Problem is the smaller they are the more easily corruptible they are.
- syshum 5y ago
  >>When you say free market do you mean with insurance? or without? Either I would like to so innovation in that space where today the government is stiffing that. For example there was a Doctor in Kansas I believe that attempted to open a Medical Coop where families would pay a monthly fee and then get access to the facility for their general medical needs.This was deemed to violate medical billing regulations so he was forced to shut it down. Then there is walmart, even a massive company like that could not navigate the regulatory burden to offer small clinics where a person could see an RN for minor medical conditions. They could not figure out how to comply with the regulations and make is profitable. There is a reason ALOT of the medical services (Doctors offices, Networks, and Hospitals) are actually NON-profits. People believe that the "profit motive" is the reason for high costs, when in reality the delivery of medical services outside of Pharmaceuticals and devices, is already non-profit As to insurance would also like to see a return of actual insurance. We we call "health insurance" is not really insurance. Insurance is about risk pooling to absorb known but unlikely events. Insurance that covers all medical expenses (i.e comprehensive coverage) is not insurance. My Auto Insurance does not cover oil changes, and my Home owners insurance does not cover replacing my HVAC system so why does my health insurance cover my annual checkup, and when I have a cold???? >>Most of health care costs are accumulated at the end. That is not an example of the incentives not lining up, and we have a solution for that, a solution I would like see expanded but HSA are designed for that.

macksd 5y ago

I feel a great frustration by those who argue against healthcare reform in the US, because most of the arguments against a socialized system resonate with me, but they also seem to be arguments against the current system. I would be concerned about moral hazard leading to people not taking care of their own health. And yet, America has a disproportionately bad problem with weight and cardiovascular health. I get a discount for not smoking, sure, but I don't get a discount for going to the gym multiple times a week and adjusting my diet to keep my weight goals. I seem to be sharing a risk pool with a lot of very willingly unhealthy people. I would be concerned about a DMV-like experience when trying to take care of my health care, except, that's what we have now. Bad incentives are created for providers, for insurers, and really it's all of them against me. And it's hardly a free market when there's still effectively a complete lack of transparency over pricing, and I can't very well shop around for where the ambulance should take me. I'm very pro-immigration as long as we have some security / documentation process that people follow that we actually enforce, because I don't want a social healthcare system that just gets abused by people who have no intention of ever being a formal part of the system that funds it. Except we already have a drain on hospitals in many states where they have to provide life-saving care but will never get reimbursed for it. And that's exactly what Romney's major argument was in defense of his state's healthcare law, but Republicans ripped him to shreds over it. I just don't understand what Republicans are arguing for here because the current system is not remotely giving any of the benefits of a free market and that doesn't seem to be changing any time soon. If the current system is privately-run healthcare, why is everyone so convinced that the vaccine is a government conspiracy? It seems to me we don't have either ideal, so we're stuck with a half-measure that isn't really working for anyone but insurers.

syshum 5y ago
>>> but I don't get a discount for going to the gym multiple times a week and adjusting my diet to keep my weight goals. I seem to be sharing a risk pool with a lot of very willingly unhealthy people. Government prevents that, the very people that push for government run healthcare, pushed to ensure all persons pay the same rates. The only discounts allowed by law are for Smoking. Your employer can not legally discount your health plan for anything other than smoking. There are some loops holes for "health incentives" billed as bonus' >>If the current system is privately-run healthcare, Its not.

cratermoon 5y ago

It's been pretty normal for a while for private industry to extract maximum profits for as long as possible while delaying change. See for example the tobacco industry.

ashtonkem 5y ago
The Tobacco industry knew that their industry was doomed. It's coldly rational, if a bit sociopathic, to decide to extract maximum value from your industry before what you perceive as an inevitable decline at the expense of your customers health. The oil industry is in a similar situation now, IMO. The private health care industry is not in such a situation. There is no guarantee that socialized healthcare is the future for America. But the more and more they attempt to extract from consumers per year, the more likely they make it that socialized medicine will happen here.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  > There is no guarantee that socialized healthcare is the future for America The private health insurance industry in the US is doomed. Whether or not the outcome is "socialized medicine" or some other form of universal healthcare coverage is beside the point.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    I don’t think current polling bears that out. If you look at any questions that imply or explicitly state that universal healthcare will eliminate their insurance, then those questions poll deeply underwater. Furthermore, I don’t think anything political like this is pre-ordained.
    - cratermoon 5y ago
      It's not the polls or politics that matter, it's the economics.