6 ms·

These companies don't notice that in this way, the good people a driven away, and only the desperate will apply. It's a catch-22. Without this process, every m

by Peroni 15y ago

These companies don't notice that in this way, the good people a driven away, and only the desperate will apply. It's a catch-22. Without this process, every man & his dog will apply for the job causing the company to have to filter through literally hundreds of applications in order to find appropriate candidates. Those that actually take the time to tolerate the process obviously consider themselves suitable and do really want the job. As a Tech Recruiter, I'm generally the front line for job applications and I'll give you stats from my most recent role: Python Dev- London - Circa £45k Applications: 48 * 36 highly irrelevant and inappropriate candidates that were blatantly just clicking 'apply' on every job they found. * 6 applications with no CV attached. * 6 potentially relevant candidates. * Out of the 6 potentials that I spoke to over the phone and face to face, only 2 were worth submitting directly to the client. These stats are pretty much the norm for most of the roles I advertise.

mootothemax 15y ago
Without this process, every man & his dog will apply for the job causing the company to have to filter through literally hundreds of applications in order to find appropriate candidates Shouldn't that be the point of tech recruitment agents, though? It used to drive me mad when recruitment agents would phone up, ask for 25%, then email me two "top" CVs which bore zero relevance to the jobs previously advertised. Out of the 6 potentials that I spoke to over the phone and face to face, only 2 were worth submitting directly to the client. You sounds like the exception that proves the rule ;)
- Peroni 15y ago
  Shouldn't that be the point of tech recruitment agents, though? Absolutely. You engage us to be your personal filter. We shield you from the deluge and provide you access to the handful of suitable candidates. I'm not surprised your recruiters are sending you irrelevant candidates. It's something I ranted about at length in my most recent blog post, link in my profile. You sounds like the exception that proves the rule ;) Most recruiters do exactly the same, the difference is the recruiters who actually understand the requirement, your needs & the technology involved will send you some decent CV's from the steaming pile of rubbish they receive, the 'salesman' recruiters will send you two CV's that appear to be relevant or are a high keyword match against the job spec and don't have a fundamental grasp of your needs.
mikle 15y ago
I think this is a compelling reason not to use sites where you can simply click apply to be considered for a job.
nirvana 15y ago
Please tell me about the "highly irrelevant and inappropriate candidates" you were seeing. Were you seeing people whose previous job experience was: Receptionist, Typist, Journalist, Janitor, Taxi Driver, etc? Or were you seeing web developers who never mentioned python on their resume? The reason I ask is, the majority of the times I've been screened by recruiters, they clearly were unable to tell what was relevant and what was not. EG: Thinking you're not qualified because you worked with a different version of a database the employer uses, even though SQL hasn't changed between versions and you probably usually shouldn't be writing SQL anyway in your code. The inability to screen properly gave me the distinct impressions that those who were filtering me out were incompetent because they were being arbitrary, and those who weren't filtering me out just had low standards (they didn't ask better questions.) In the end, I was the one who filtered me out of inappropriate jobs because I could tell by their descriptions (if they let me see the job description rather than rambling on about how they need a "ninja coder to take their B2B accounting software to the next level"). Do you use any software to screen the applications for appropriateness? I know that keywords likely would only work to get rid of the 36 (or would they? Did they all say "python" on their resume?) Would machine learning or bayesian techniques possibly work better?
- Peroni 15y ago
  I don't use any artificial means of filtering candidates. If I receive 48 applications, I read 48 CV's. There were a large number of graduates with zero commercial experience and zero open source contributions as well as a number of foreign candidates with completely unrelated careers simply looking for a job in London. There were also a number of underqualified candidates and people with strong careers but zero commercial or practical experience with Python.
  - mironathetin 15y ago
    Well, for a good programmer it is trivial to learn Python, and especially Python, in a very (!) short time.
    - noonat 15y ago
nknight 15y ago
But those statistics by themselves do nothing to counter one of the key points. How do you actually know they were irrelevant? How do you know the 4 potentials weren't worth submitting? Your commenting history suggests you might have a clue what you're doing, but this comment taken by itself could easily be from a recruiter that's part of the problem and doesn't know it. Lord knows I've never (in the US) personally encountered a recruiter that really understood the position they were trying to fill.
- Peroni 15y ago
  How do you actually know they were irrelevant? How do you know the 4 potentials weren't worth submitting? I'm a former developer. I'm currently teaching myself Python. I listen and understand my clients needs. I'm not afraid to ask a client or candidate to elaborate on a point I don't understand. Essentially I don't think that it's necessary for a recruiter to claim to know everything about every technology as I believe from experience that a lot of employers find honesty refreshing.
ay 15y ago
If you're looking for the coding jobs, ask them if: - they have a github profile - they have a stackoverflow profile - they have a linkedin profile (the latter will go for a CV - I actually used it when one $reasonably_big_and_known_company called me up wanting to hire me and wanted me to write a CV - I told them to use my linkedin profile, and it worked all right). Arguably this is not a 1:1 relation - since there might be a lot of good programmers that do not bother to communicate much externally. But if they have the presence, then you will be well able to judge their quality without having to ask them a single question. (I silently assume you can read code/judge programming questions - if not, then my blurb is of not much use indeed)
nickthedart 15y ago
IMHO one thing the client needs to do to get a decent Python programmer apply is either relocate that job somewhere cheaper, or pay significantly more. In London, too much of that £45k is going to be swallowed up by accommodation costs.
- Peroni 15y ago
  You'd be surprised. £45k is a pretty standard salary for Python Devs as well as Ruby Devs which are much harder to find.
  - gaius 15y ago
    For better or worse, there are fairly low barriers to entry for Python devs, e.g. doing Django. Same with Ruby and RoR. The higher the barriers to entry, the higher the salary.

by Peroni 15y ago

mootothemax 15y ago

Without this process, every man & his dog will apply for the job causing the company to have to filter through literally hundreds of applications in order to find appropriate candidates Shouldn't that be the point of tech recruitment agents, though? It used to drive me mad when recruitment agents would phone up, ask for 25%, then email me two "top" CVs which bore zero relevance to the jobs previously advertised. Out of the 6 potentials that I spoke to over the phone and face to face, only 2 were worth submitting directly to the client. You sounds like the exception that proves the rule ;)

Peroni 15y ago
Shouldn't that be the point of tech recruitment agents, though? Absolutely. You engage us to be your personal filter. We shield you from the deluge and provide you access to the handful of suitable candidates. I'm not surprised your recruiters are sending you irrelevant candidates. It's something I ranted about at length in my most recent blog post, link in my profile. You sounds like the exception that proves the rule ;) Most recruiters do exactly the same, the difference is the recruiters who actually understand the requirement, your needs & the technology involved will send you some decent CV's from the steaming pile of rubbish they receive, the 'salesman' recruiters will send you two CV's that appear to be relevant or are a high keyword match against the job spec and don't have a fundamental grasp of your needs.

mikle 15y ago

I think this is a compelling reason not to use sites where you can simply click apply to be considered for a job.

nirvana 15y ago

Please tell me about the "highly irrelevant and inappropriate candidates" you were seeing. Were you seeing people whose previous job experience was: Receptionist, Typist, Journalist, Janitor, Taxi Driver, etc? Or were you seeing web developers who never mentioned python on their resume? The reason I ask is, the majority of the times I've been screened by recruiters, they clearly were unable to tell what was relevant and what was not. EG: Thinking you're not qualified because you worked with a different version of a database the employer uses, even though SQL hasn't changed between versions and you probably usually shouldn't be writing SQL anyway in your code. The inability to screen properly gave me the distinct impressions that those who were filtering me out were incompetent because they were being arbitrary, and those who weren't filtering me out just had low standards (they didn't ask better questions.) In the end, I was the one who filtered me out of inappropriate jobs because I could tell by their descriptions (if they let me see the job description rather than rambling on about how they need a "ninja coder to take their B2B accounting software to the next level"). Do you use any software to screen the applications for appropriateness? I know that keywords likely would only work to get rid of the 36 (or would they? Did they all say "python" on their resume?) Would machine learning or bayesian techniques possibly work better?

Peroni 15y ago
I don't use any artificial means of filtering candidates. If I receive 48 applications, I read 48 CV's. There were a large number of graduates with zero commercial experience and zero open source contributions as well as a number of foreign candidates with completely unrelated careers simply looking for a job in London. There were also a number of underqualified candidates and people with strong careers but zero commercial or practical experience with Python.
- mironathetin 15y ago
  Well, for a good programmer it is trivial to learn Python, and especially Python, in a very (!) short time.
  - noonat 15y ago

nknight 15y ago

But those statistics by themselves do nothing to counter one of the key points. How do you actually know they were irrelevant? How do you know the 4 potentials weren't worth submitting? Your commenting history suggests you might have a clue what you're doing, but this comment taken by itself could easily be from a recruiter that's part of the problem and doesn't know it. Lord knows I've never (in the US) personally encountered a recruiter that really understood the position they were trying to fill.

Peroni 15y ago
How do you actually know they were irrelevant? How do you know the 4 potentials weren't worth submitting? I'm a former developer. I'm currently teaching myself Python. I listen and understand my clients needs. I'm not afraid to ask a client or candidate to elaborate on a point I don't understand. Essentially I don't think that it's necessary for a recruiter to claim to know everything about every technology as I believe from experience that a lot of employers find honesty refreshing.

ay 15y ago

If you're looking for the coding jobs, ask them if: - they have a github profile - they have a stackoverflow profile - they have a linkedin profile (the latter will go for a CV - I actually used it when one $reasonably_big_and_known_company called me up wanting to hire me and wanted me to write a CV - I told them to use my linkedin profile, and it worked all right). Arguably this is not a 1:1 relation - since there might be a lot of good programmers that do not bother to communicate much externally. But if they have the presence, then you will be well able to judge their quality without having to ask them a single question. (I silently assume you can read code/judge programming questions - if not, then my blurb is of not much use indeed)

nickthedart 15y ago

IMHO one thing the client needs to do to get a decent Python programmer apply is either relocate that job somewhere cheaper, or pay significantly more. In London, too much of that £45k is going to be swallowed up by accommodation costs.

Peroni 15y ago
You'd be surprised. £45k is a pretty standard salary for Python Devs as well as Ruby Devs which are much harder to find.
- gaius 15y ago
  For better or worse, there are fairly low barriers to entry for Python devs, e.g. doing Django. Same with Ruby and RoR. The higher the barriers to entry, the higher the salary.