6 ms·

A bit off topic, but why do people conflate Elizabeth Holmes with Adam Neumann (and Travis Kalanick), completely different issues, one is fraud and the other is

A bit off topic, but why do people conflate Elizabeth Holmes with Adam Neumann (and Travis Kalanick), completely different issues, one is fraud and the other is just a failed IPO that included some hyperbole, nothing more. No comparison.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
Adam Neumann is not Elizabeth Holmes, but there is more to his story than "a failed IPO that included some hyperbole".
ashtonkem 5y ago
Arguably Neumann was a fraud, he just got away with it. WeWork’s books were thoroughly cooked, and he managed to extract an inappropriate amount of wealth from it via his role, up to and including making the company lease land from him, and (attempting) to force the company to license its own brand from him personally.
ryandrake 5y ago
I lump them together because their primary skills are charm and persuasion rather than hands-on subject matter expertise. To me, it doesn't matter whether the end result turns out to be fraud or incompetence, they get ahead of honesty and competence by being phony smooth-talking salesmen. Like a role playing character that puts all their skill points into "Charisma" and nothing else. And it's not just high profile entrepreneurs. Everyone knows people like this, they're all around us, climbing the corporate ladder. Mediocre performers, but boy can they "look the part", flash a big gorgeous smile, and talk in ways that sound pleasing to leadership but are ultimately empty words.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  > Mediocre performers, but boy can they "look the part", flash a big gorgeous smile, and talk in ways that sound pleasing to leadership but are ultimately empty words. Coincidentally, this also characterizes Ozy's content, which is unbelievably vapid and safe, but delivered with an unearned tone of gravitas. At least TED(x) talks were sometimes good because of the sheer number of them. Ozy content is never good.
  - chiefgeek 5y ago
    Right! And go ahead and try to unsubscribe! Impossible.
- soheil 5y ago
  Obligatory question: why don’t you do that if it’s so easy? My suspicion is you judge a book by its cover, how do you know it’s not just how they treat others ie. with a big smile that makes them succeed, but also the effort they put in behind the scenes when you’re not looking? Does putting up a great face necessarily mean the content must be garbage and the whole package cannot be just as great?
  - SuoDuanDao 5y ago
    I don't think anyone is saying it's easy - the complaint seems to more be that it creates no value (unlike those hard working technologists).
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    It's not easy, though it's mostly learnable. But the important part is that it's also a moral failure. You have to sacrifice your soul to do this well.
CPLX 5y ago
There were a few things in the WeWork story that were way closer to the fraud line than you're implying here including circular revenue and self-dealing.
sharadov 5y ago
Neumann was a complete conman, and he's the smarter one because he got away with a lot of money , while Holmes is a psychopath who hopefully will end up with a long prison sentence.
- ativzzz 5y ago
  I'm so jaded that I think she will get off scott free
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    Of course! She will serve no prison time, and for the rest of her life remain richer than any of us are here on HN. Furthermore, she will go on to found other companies and have no trouble funding them. I could even see a successful political future with her prestigious contacts in government. Easiest predictions I’ve ever made.
  - SuoDuanDao 5y ago
    Nah, she made a lot of proud people look stupid. I predict she'll get the Shkreli treatment.
    - hellbannedguy 5y ago
      Not now, she's already blaming that little guy who followed her around like a puppy dog. That whole "woke" thing will work to her advantage. I predict a no federal jail, or a few months, like a Martha Stewart. She will write her bio. She will be on the talk circuit the minute the trial is over, and talk about being a victim. I don't think she will wear the black turtleneck ever. My wish is they start to fining white collar criminals much more, especially the wealthy ones. Federal prison time for wealthy criminals seems like a vacation. Get them where they worship---their money. Every time I hear the fine, I cringe. Is that all? I would like to see all societal fees/fines tied to assets. She shouldn't feel able to capitalize on the crime either. Then again I have never understood the logic of making a poor man pay the same fine, as the poor man.
danrocks 5y ago
Did you miss the part where he trademarked company property and tried to sell it back to the company? Or the part that he acquired buildings and leased them to WeWork at inflated prices? There's an argument her for Adam Neumann to be actually WORSE than Elizabeth Holmes.
NoboruWataya 5y ago
It takes a while for fraud to come to light. I'm not for a second suggesting Neumann is a fraud, but I would guess that the people who conflate him with Holmes think (rightly or wrongly) that the WeWork saga had at least some high-level hallmarks of fraud.

thaumasiotes 5y ago

Adam Neumann is not Elizabeth Holmes, but there is more to his story than "a failed IPO that included some hyperbole".

ashtonkem 5y ago

Arguably Neumann was a fraud, he just got away with it. WeWork’s books were thoroughly cooked, and he managed to extract an inappropriate amount of wealth from it via his role, up to and including making the company lease land from him, and (attempting) to force the company to license its own brand from him personally.

ryandrake 5y ago

I lump them together because their primary skills are charm and persuasion rather than hands-on subject matter expertise. To me, it doesn't matter whether the end result turns out to be fraud or incompetence, they get ahead of honesty and competence by being phony smooth-talking salesmen. Like a role playing character that puts all their skill points into "Charisma" and nothing else. And it's not just high profile entrepreneurs. Everyone knows people like this, they're all around us, climbing the corporate ladder. Mediocre performers, but boy can they "look the part", flash a big gorgeous smile, and talk in ways that sound pleasing to leadership but are ultimately empty words.

pessimizer 5y ago
> Mediocre performers, but boy can they "look the part", flash a big gorgeous smile, and talk in ways that sound pleasing to leadership but are ultimately empty words. Coincidentally, this also characterizes Ozy's content, which is unbelievably vapid and safe, but delivered with an unearned tone of gravitas. At least TED(x) talks were sometimes good because of the sheer number of them. Ozy content is never good.
- chiefgeek 5y ago
  Right! And go ahead and try to unsubscribe! Impossible.
soheil 5y ago
Obligatory question: why don’t you do that if it’s so easy? My suspicion is you judge a book by its cover, how do you know it’s not just how they treat others ie. with a big smile that makes them succeed, but also the effort they put in behind the scenes when you’re not looking? Does putting up a great face necessarily mean the content must be garbage and the whole package cannot be just as great?
- SuoDuanDao 5y ago
  I don't think anyone is saying it's easy - the complaint seems to more be that it creates no value (unlike those hard working technologists).
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  It's not easy, though it's mostly learnable. But the important part is that it's also a moral failure. You have to sacrifice your soul to do this well.

CPLX 5y ago

There were a few things in the WeWork story that were way closer to the fraud line than you're implying here including circular revenue and self-dealing.

sharadov 5y ago

Neumann was a complete conman, and he's the smarter one because he got away with a lot of money , while Holmes is a psychopath who hopefully will end up with a long prison sentence.

ativzzz 5y ago
I'm so jaded that I think she will get off scott free
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Of course! She will serve no prison time, and for the rest of her life remain richer than any of us are here on HN. Furthermore, she will go on to found other companies and have no trouble funding them. I could even see a successful political future with her prestigious contacts in government. Easiest predictions I’ve ever made.
- SuoDuanDao 5y ago
  Nah, she made a lot of proud people look stupid. I predict she'll get the Shkreli treatment.
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    Not now, she's already blaming that little guy who followed her around like a puppy dog. That whole "woke" thing will work to her advantage. I predict a no federal jail, or a few months, like a Martha Stewart. She will write her bio. She will be on the talk circuit the minute the trial is over, and talk about being a victim. I don't think she will wear the black turtleneck ever. My wish is they start to fining white collar criminals much more, especially the wealthy ones. Federal prison time for wealthy criminals seems like a vacation. Get them where they worship---their money. Every time I hear the fine, I cringe. Is that all? I would like to see all societal fees/fines tied to assets. She shouldn't feel able to capitalize on the crime either. Then again I have never understood the logic of making a poor man pay the same fine, as the poor man.

danrocks 5y ago

Did you miss the part where he trademarked company property and tried to sell it back to the company? Or the part that he acquired buildings and leased them to WeWork at inflated prices? There's an argument her for Adam Neumann to be actually WORSE than Elizabeth Holmes.

NoboruWataya 5y ago

It takes a while for fraud to come to light. I'm not for a second suggesting Neumann is a fraud, but I would guess that the people who conflate him with Holmes think (rightly or wrongly) that the WeWork saga had at least some high-level hallmarks of fraud.