4 ms·

Conning people doesn't seem like a good way to get your message through to them.

Tichy 15y ago
Not much of a con, since I think the T-Shirts were free? Total damage: costs of carrying T-Shirt home, electricity wasted for washing.
- russellallen 15y ago
  Not a monetary con, but giving them a T-Shirt that says one thing, knowing that underneath it is another contrary message... Forget for a moment that we're talking about people whose beliefs we (presumably) strongly disagree with and imagine another scenario - say youth at a Democrats rally are given T-Shirts with Obama on them, take them home and find that after a wash they have a pro-T-Party slogan. I would think that pretty unlikely to change anyone's mind. They're more likely to be pissed off. I can imagine the Exit people watching the concert and giggling at their clever prank. Cute prank, amusing, but as a technique for persuasion?
  - darklajid 15y ago
    You still think that they wanted to 'persuade' or 'convince' people with this shirt. That's not true according to various reports. On the other hand: I know _I_ would've giggled nevertheless, seeing people walk away with those.. That doesn't change the fact that the whole thing was a _success_ measured against the goals of the creators.
  - dagw 15y ago
    How many young pro-Obama democrats are secretly considering joining the tea-party movement, but are currently afraid to do so due to per-pressure and the threat of retaliatory violence? The goal isn't to persuade or change peoples minds, but give people who have, on some level, decided that they want to leave the push and support they need to actually take the final step.
    - smithian 15y ago
      "but are currently afraid to do so due to per-pressure and the threat of retaliatory violence?" You can't be serious. What "threat of retaliatory violence"? And to answer your question, approximately none.
      - dagw 15y ago
        Which would be exactly my point. Comparing leaving the Democrats to leaving a hard core neo-nazi organization is kind of silly.
        smithian 15y ago
        Wow, I totally misread your post. It looked to me as if you were seriously comparing them. Sorry, looks like it's time for coffee.
  - caf 15y ago
    It wouldn't be at all rational for them to be pissed off. If they'd paid for it, different story. It's not a con, it's a prank.
darklajid 15y ago
A German newspaper article mentions that this was obvious to the people doing this as well. They still went ahead with it for two reasons: - They had a way to reach their 'targets' directly, in private - They wanted to establish a name. The German explanation sounds like they're trying to build up a reputation first So yes, they were/are aware that these shirts won't convert anyone and they certainly expect no quick result anyway.
uiet 15y ago
Keep in mind the main goal was to spread the message (address & phone!) of an "exit" program for people who want to leave that scene. So those people who want to eventually leave know that they can get help. (It seems peer pressure is very high inside those circles) From what I read that "attack" was a big talk in the German right wing forums websites... => people now know the Exit program exists => so it worked VERY well.
Argorak 15y ago
Actually, it does work. I was working in a similar group (locally and much smaller) for some time. You can reach everyone with clever and impressive actions for a simple reason: they are impressive and resonate so much that even the "enemy" has to admit that they were impressed. You won't turn anyone, but you make sure that they know someone to turn to once they do. Its an offer to talk. Considering that exiting the right-wing circle often involves ditching most of your friends, someone to talk is the most important asset "on the other side".
- morehnnonsense 15y ago
  You are welcomed to go fuck yourself. Your pseudo-tolerance is transparent.
  - mazuhl 15y ago
    Exit are a left-wing group trying to steer people away from a right-wing group. Tolerance doesn't come into it. From the perspective of the left in Germany, street-level and youth movements for right-wing groups are a real problem. And this is a practical, pragmatic action.

Tichy 15y ago

Not much of a con, since I think the T-Shirts were free? Total damage: costs of carrying T-Shirt home, electricity wasted for washing.

russellallen 15y ago
Not a monetary con, but giving them a T-Shirt that says one thing, knowing that underneath it is another contrary message... Forget for a moment that we're talking about people whose beliefs we (presumably) strongly disagree with and imagine another scenario - say youth at a Democrats rally are given T-Shirts with Obama on them, take them home and find that after a wash they have a pro-T-Party slogan. I would think that pretty unlikely to change anyone's mind. They're more likely to be pissed off. I can imagine the Exit people watching the concert and giggling at their clever prank. Cute prank, amusing, but as a technique for persuasion?
- darklajid 15y ago
  You still think that they wanted to 'persuade' or 'convince' people with this shirt. That's not true according to various reports. On the other hand: I know _I_ would've giggled nevertheless, seeing people walk away with those.. That doesn't change the fact that the whole thing was a _success_ measured against the goals of the creators.
- dagw 15y ago
  How many young pro-Obama democrats are secretly considering joining the tea-party movement, but are currently afraid to do so due to per-pressure and the threat of retaliatory violence? The goal isn't to persuade or change peoples minds, but give people who have, on some level, decided that they want to leave the push and support they need to actually take the final step.
  - smithian 15y ago
    "but are currently afraid to do so due to per-pressure and the threat of retaliatory violence?" You can't be serious. What "threat of retaliatory violence"? And to answer your question, approximately none.
    - dagw 15y ago
      Which would be exactly my point. Comparing leaving the Democrats to leaving a hard core neo-nazi organization is kind of silly.
      - smithian 15y ago
        Wow, I totally misread your post. It looked to me as if you were seriously comparing them. Sorry, looks like it's time for coffee.
- caf 15y ago
  It wouldn't be at all rational for them to be pissed off. If they'd paid for it, different story. It's not a con, it's a prank.

darklajid 15y ago

A German newspaper article mentions that this was obvious to the people doing this as well. They still went ahead with it for two reasons: - They had a way to reach their 'targets' directly, in private - They wanted to establish a name. The German explanation sounds like they're trying to build up a reputation first So yes, they were/are aware that these shirts won't convert anyone and they certainly expect no quick result anyway.

uiet 15y ago

Keep in mind the main goal was to spread the message (address & phone!) of an "exit" program for people who want to leave that scene. So those people who want to eventually leave know that they can get help. (It seems peer pressure is very high inside those circles) From what I read that "attack" was a big talk in the German right wing forums websites... => people now know the Exit program exists => so it worked VERY well.

Argorak 15y ago

Actually, it does work. I was working in a similar group (locally and much smaller) for some time. You can reach everyone with clever and impressive actions for a simple reason: they are impressive and resonate so much that even the "enemy" has to admit that they were impressed. You won't turn anyone, but you make sure that they know someone to turn to once they do. Its an offer to talk. Considering that exiting the right-wing circle often involves ditching most of your friends, someone to talk is the most important asset "on the other side".

morehnnonsense 15y ago
You are welcomed to go fuck yourself. Your pseudo-tolerance is transparent.
- mazuhl 15y ago
  Exit are a left-wing group trying to steer people away from a right-wing group. Tolerance doesn't come into it. From the perspective of the left in Germany, street-level and youth movements for right-wing groups are a real problem. And this is a practical, pragmatic action.