8 ms·

Trojan T-shirt targets German right-wing rock fans

142 points by steilpass 15y ago

steilpass 15y ago
First the t-shirt says: "hardcore rebels national and free" after washed the original writing disappears. Instead it says: "What your t-shirt can do you can do too." Images: http://www.businessinsider.com/trojan-t-shirts-neo-nazis-2011-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/trojan-t-shirts-neo-nazis-201...
russellallen 15y ago
Conning people doesn't seem like a good way to get your message through to them.
- Tichy 15y ago
  Not much of a con, since I think the T-Shirts were free? Total damage: costs of carrying T-Shirt home, electricity wasted for washing.
  - russellallen 15y ago
    Not a monetary con, but giving them a T-Shirt that says one thing, knowing that underneath it is another contrary message... Forget for a moment that we're talking about people whose beliefs we (presumably) strongly disagree with and imagine another scenario - say youth at a Democrats rally are given T-Shirts with Obama on them, take them home and find that after a wash they have a pro-T-Party slogan. I would think that pretty unlikely to change anyone's mind. They're more likely to be pissed off. I can imagine the Exit people watching the concert and giggling at their clever prank. Cute prank, amusing, but as a technique for persuasion?
    - darklajid 15y ago
      You still think that they wanted to 'persuade' or 'convince' people with this shirt. That's not true according to various reports. On the other hand: I know _I_ would've giggled nevertheless, seeing people walk away with those.. That doesn't change the fact that the whole thing was a _success_ measured against the goals of the creators.
    - dagw 15y ago
      How many young pro-Obama democrats are secretly considering joining the tea-party movement, but are currently afraid to do so due to per-pressure and the threat of retaliatory violence? The goal isn't to persuade or change peoples minds, but give people who have, on some level, decided that they want to leave the push and support they need to actually take the final step.
      - smithian 15y ago
        "but are currently afraid to do so due to per-pressure and the threat of retaliatory violence?" You can't be serious. What "threat of retaliatory violence"? And to answer your question, approximately none.
        dagw 15y ago
        Which would be exactly my point. Comparing leaving the Democrats to leaving a hard core neo-nazi organization is kind of silly.
        smithian 15y ago
        Wow, I totally misread your post. It looked to me as if you were seriously comparing them. Sorry, looks like it's time for coffee.
    - caf 15y ago
      It wouldn't be at all rational for them to be pissed off. If they'd paid for it, different story. It's not a con, it's a prank.
- darklajid 15y ago
  A German newspaper article mentions that this was obvious to the people doing this as well. They still went ahead with it for two reasons: - They had a way to reach their 'targets' directly, in private - They wanted to establish a name. The German explanation sounds like they're trying to build up a reputation first So yes, they were/are aware that these shirts won't convert anyone and they certainly expect no quick result anyway.
- uiet 15y ago
  Keep in mind the main goal was to spread the message (address & phone!) of an "exit" program for people who want to leave that scene. So those people who want to eventually leave know that they can get help. (It seems peer pressure is very high inside those circles) From what I read that "attack" was a big talk in the German right wing forums websites... => people now know the Exit program exists => so it worked VERY well.
- Argorak 15y ago
  Actually, it does work. I was working in a similar group (locally and much smaller) for some time. You can reach everyone with clever and impressive actions for a simple reason: they are impressive and resonate so much that even the "enemy" has to admit that they were impressed. You won't turn anyone, but you make sure that they know someone to turn to once they do. Its an offer to talk. Considering that exiting the right-wing circle often involves ditching most of your friends, someone to talk is the most important asset "on the other side".
  - morehnnonsense 15y ago
    You are welcomed to go fuck yourself. Your pseudo-tolerance is transparent.
    - mazuhl 15y ago
      Exit are a left-wing group trying to steer people away from a right-wing group. Tolerance doesn't come into it. From the perspective of the left in Germany, street-level and youth movements for right-wing groups are a real problem. And this is a practical, pragmatic action.
coldarchon 15y ago
on a sidenote, Trojan Skinheads are not political in any way. They are chaotic neutral ..
- coldarchon 15y ago
  people who voted this down probably have no idea about the spirit of '69.
_delirium 15y ago
On the technical side, how would I make something like this? Can you order these kinds of wash-once-to-change-message shirts? If not, what kind of ink would you use to DIY it?
- phreeza 15y ago
  I guess combining one paint which isn't water-soluble with another that is. Acrylic paint would probably do the trick?
  - darklajid 15y ago
    I'd like to know if the paint that obviously was removed from the shirt caused any other issues, tainting other clothes for example? I mean - if you dress in black completely it might be a non-issue of course.
- mhb 15y ago
  I like the idea of making it using light sensitive paint.
- brazzy 15y ago
  Here's a longer article in the Germany newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung that has details: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/aktion-auf-rechtsrockfestival-trojaner-t-hemd-legt-neonazis-rein-1.1129735 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/aktion-auf-rechtsrockfes... Apparently, they printed about 50 shirts using different mixes until they got the desired result. It sounds like it's simply two layers of printing, the lower one using regular washing-resitant ink, and the on top using an ink that comes off in the washing machine - but not from simply getting wet (since that would have risked early discovery). It may be temperature-dependant.
sasvari 15y ago
here's an article in the english section of the german news magazine SPIEGEL, explaining the intentions of the organizers in detail: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,779446,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,779446,00...
erikb 15y ago
I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China is even the cool new thing, that young people follow (because it is against the depressing government, which many young Chinese don't like at all). Tell me about how you understand "right-wing" in non-German countries, please!
- count 15y ago
  You are correct with respect to the USA - right wing here is traditionally just 'conservative'. Recently that's started being tinged around 'religious' as well. Definitely not 'skinhead racist'.
  - cchurch 15y ago
    As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics?
    - eru 15y ago
      > As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Liberal. > Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics? Religious nut. Germans don't mix politics and religion. (Quiet piety is OK, but don't talk about it in front of voters.)
      - hvs 15y ago
        As to your second point, people like me can only dream of a day when Americans didn't mix politics with faux-religiosity. (I refuse to call the way that many Americans use religion in such a public manner as having anything to do with true piety or spirtuality).
samstave 15y ago
I think this would be the most bad ass guerilla marketing technique. Say you are WePay - and you go to a Paypal event and hand out hundreds of PayPal shirts, which become WePay shirts after the users take them home and wash them for the first time. Or, we can simply go to TeaParty campaigns and troll unsuspecting users there :)

142 points by steilpass 15y ago

First the t-shirt says: "hardcore rebels national and free" after washed the original writing disappears. Instead it says: "What your t-shirt can do you can do too." Images: http://www.businessinsider.com/trojan-t-shirts-neo-nazis-2011-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/trojan-t-shirts-neo-nazis-201...

russellallen 15y ago

Conning people doesn't seem like a good way to get your message through to them.

Tichy 15y ago
Not much of a con, since I think the T-Shirts were free? Total damage: costs of carrying T-Shirt home, electricity wasted for washing.
- russellallen 15y ago
  Not a monetary con, but giving them a T-Shirt that says one thing, knowing that underneath it is another contrary message... Forget for a moment that we're talking about people whose beliefs we (presumably) strongly disagree with and imagine another scenario - say youth at a Democrats rally are given T-Shirts with Obama on them, take them home and find that after a wash they have a pro-T-Party slogan. I would think that pretty unlikely to change anyone's mind. They're more likely to be pissed off. I can imagine the Exit people watching the concert and giggling at their clever prank. Cute prank, amusing, but as a technique for persuasion?
  - darklajid 15y ago
    You still think that they wanted to 'persuade' or 'convince' people with this shirt. That's not true according to various reports. On the other hand: I know _I_ would've giggled nevertheless, seeing people walk away with those.. That doesn't change the fact that the whole thing was a _success_ measured against the goals of the creators.
  - dagw 15y ago
    How many young pro-Obama democrats are secretly considering joining the tea-party movement, but are currently afraid to do so due to per-pressure and the threat of retaliatory violence? The goal isn't to persuade or change peoples minds, but give people who have, on some level, decided that they want to leave the push and support they need to actually take the final step.
    - smithian 15y ago
      "but are currently afraid to do so due to per-pressure and the threat of retaliatory violence?" You can't be serious. What "threat of retaliatory violence"? And to answer your question, approximately none.
      - dagw 15y ago
        Which would be exactly my point. Comparing leaving the Democrats to leaving a hard core neo-nazi organization is kind of silly.
        smithian 15y ago
        Wow, I totally misread your post. It looked to me as if you were seriously comparing them. Sorry, looks like it's time for coffee.
  - caf 15y ago
    It wouldn't be at all rational for them to be pissed off. If they'd paid for it, different story. It's not a con, it's a prank.
darklajid 15y ago
A German newspaper article mentions that this was obvious to the people doing this as well. They still went ahead with it for two reasons: - They had a way to reach their 'targets' directly, in private - They wanted to establish a name. The German explanation sounds like they're trying to build up a reputation first So yes, they were/are aware that these shirts won't convert anyone and they certainly expect no quick result anyway.
uiet 15y ago
Keep in mind the main goal was to spread the message (address & phone!) of an "exit" program for people who want to leave that scene. So those people who want to eventually leave know that they can get help. (It seems peer pressure is very high inside those circles) From what I read that "attack" was a big talk in the German right wing forums websites... => people now know the Exit program exists => so it worked VERY well.
Argorak 15y ago
Actually, it does work. I was working in a similar group (locally and much smaller) for some time. You can reach everyone with clever and impressive actions for a simple reason: they are impressive and resonate so much that even the "enemy" has to admit that they were impressed. You won't turn anyone, but you make sure that they know someone to turn to once they do. Its an offer to talk. Considering that exiting the right-wing circle often involves ditching most of your friends, someone to talk is the most important asset "on the other side".
- morehnnonsense 15y ago
  You are welcomed to go fuck yourself. Your pseudo-tolerance is transparent.
  - mazuhl 15y ago
    Exit are a left-wing group trying to steer people away from a right-wing group. Tolerance doesn't come into it. From the perspective of the left in Germany, street-level and youth movements for right-wing groups are a real problem. And this is a practical, pragmatic action.

coldarchon 15y ago

on a sidenote, Trojan Skinheads are not political in any way. They are chaotic neutral ..

coldarchon 15y ago
people who voted this down probably have no idea about the spirit of '69.

_delirium 15y ago

On the technical side, how would I make something like this? Can you order these kinds of wash-once-to-change-message shirts? If not, what kind of ink would you use to DIY it?

phreeza 15y ago
I guess combining one paint which isn't water-soluble with another that is. Acrylic paint would probably do the trick?
- darklajid 15y ago
  I'd like to know if the paint that obviously was removed from the shirt caused any other issues, tainting other clothes for example? I mean - if you dress in black completely it might be a non-issue of course.
mhb 15y ago
I like the idea of making it using light sensitive paint.
brazzy 15y ago
Here's a longer article in the Germany newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung that has details: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/aktion-auf-rechtsrockfestival-trojaner-t-hemd-legt-neonazis-rein-1.1129735 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/aktion-auf-rechtsrockfes... Apparently, they printed about 50 shirts using different mixes until they got the desired result. It sounds like it's simply two layers of printing, the lower one using regular washing-resitant ink, and the on top using an ink that comes off in the washing machine - but not from simply getting wet (since that would have risked early discovery). It may be temperature-dependant.

sasvari 15y ago

here's an article in the english section of the german news magazine SPIEGEL, explaining the intentions of the organizers in detail: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,779446,00.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,779446,00...

erikb 15y ago

I'm a German and I wonder if the word "right-wing" is understood in the same way by US Americans as it is understood by us. Because of our past, we treat everything coming from the "right" as being totally wrong and stupid (which might be good or not). But I think in other countries, with another historical background, right-wing might mean just conservative, not skinhead racist. As far as I know, right-wing in China is even the cool new thing, that young people follow (because it is against the depressing government, which many young Chinese don't like at all). Tell me about how you understand "right-wing" in non-German countries, please!

count 15y ago
You are correct with respect to the USA - right wing here is traditionally just 'conservative'. Recently that's started being tinged around 'religious' as well. Definitely not 'skinhead racist'.
- cchurch 15y ago
  As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics?
  - eru 15y ago
    > As someone who could easily be described as "right-wing" in the USA, I'm curious how Germany would describe someone who is for limited-government, individual liberties, and reduced entitlement spending? Liberal. > Or, also in the scope of "American right-wing," how would Germany describe someone who injects Christian morality into their politics? Religious nut. Germans don't mix politics and religion. (Quiet piety is OK, but don't talk about it in front of voters.)
    - hvs 15y ago
      As to your second point, people like me can only dream of a day when Americans didn't mix politics with faux-religiosity. (I refuse to call the way that many Americans use religion in such a public manner as having anything to do with true piety or spirtuality).

samstave 15y ago

I think this would be the most bad ass guerilla marketing technique. Say you are WePay - and you go to a Paypal event and hand out hundreds of PayPal shirts, which become WePay shirts after the users take them home and wash them for the first time. Or, we can simply go to TeaParty campaigns and troll unsuspecting users there :)