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Yes, and then we ask an Iranian what being influenced by the US means, and we stop all international collaboration and just focus on the EU. But then we shouldn

Yes, and then we ask an Iranian what being influenced by the US means, and we stop all international collaboration and just focus on the EU. But then we shouldn't ask southern Europeans what northern European influencing is... I get that horrible things have happened, and nations did horrible things to each other. But we are citizens and I wish nothing but the best for citizens of other countries. I don't want war or influencing. I would like my gas to be a bit cheaper and preferably cleaner. Power to Iranian, Ukranian, Russian, EU and US (and all) citizens. I hope we can one day untangle our leaders from the companies in our countries and just make them do what is best for us.

datameta 5y ago
I can see your words are amicable but drawing an equivalence of wrongdoing to another wrongdoer does not exonerate the former (Russia).
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  > but drawing an equivalence of wrongdoing to another wrongdoer does not exonerate the former (Russia). Incorrect, it completely exonerates them if you are going to merrily let the the other wrongdoer carry on with the offending behaviour. If you disagree, ask what's the moral case for not dealing the other wrongdoer tomorrow morning?
  - datameta 5y ago
    My deep embarassment at the peace wrecking actions of the other wrongdoer (USA) as a citizen of the country in no way diminishes my absolute condemnation of Russia's actions toward Ukraine, as someone whose ancestry is from both the perpetrator and victim nation.
    - throwaway210222 5y ago
      My thoughts exactly. So lets deal with Russia today, and de-fang the USA tomorrow at 9am. No? Why not? See?
      - datameta 5y ago
        I'm not quite sure if you followed what I had said. Let us assume one can directly measure wrongdoing and correlate a level of condemnation. For the sake of argument let us say the USA is deserving of 100 units of condemnation, whereas Russia is only fit to receive 50. This is not an equation that becomes 50 and 0. All that Russia is responsible for is still equally hegemonic, internationally illegal, amoral, and unethical. In so many words I am essentially saying that whataboutism does not add to the discourse and in fact derails and detracts.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    The "other wrongdoer" isn't doing harm on the order that Russia is (indeed, the "other wrongdoer" does a tremendous amount of good globally that we all collectively ignore) but more saliently the "other wrongdoer" supplies Europe with an order of magnitude less natural gas than Russia.
throwaway894345 5y ago
To your point “influence” itself isn’t bad, but who you are influenced by is significant. And if you think the US and Russia are comparable then I don’t have hope for a reasonable conversation.

datameta 5y ago

I can see your words are amicable but drawing an equivalence of wrongdoing to another wrongdoer does not exonerate the former (Russia).

throwaway210222 5y ago
> but drawing an equivalence of wrongdoing to another wrongdoer does not exonerate the former (Russia). Incorrect, it completely exonerates them if you are going to merrily let the the other wrongdoer carry on with the offending behaviour. If you disagree, ask what's the moral case for not dealing the other wrongdoer tomorrow morning?
- datameta 5y ago
  My deep embarassment at the peace wrecking actions of the other wrongdoer (USA) as a citizen of the country in no way diminishes my absolute condemnation of Russia's actions toward Ukraine, as someone whose ancestry is from both the perpetrator and victim nation.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    My thoughts exactly. So lets deal with Russia today, and de-fang the USA tomorrow at 9am. No? Why not? See?
    - datameta 5y ago
      I'm not quite sure if you followed what I had said. Let us assume one can directly measure wrongdoing and correlate a level of condemnation. For the sake of argument let us say the USA is deserving of 100 units of condemnation, whereas Russia is only fit to receive 50. This is not an equation that becomes 50 and 0. All that Russia is responsible for is still equally hegemonic, internationally illegal, amoral, and unethical. In so many words I am essentially saying that whataboutism does not add to the discourse and in fact derails and detracts.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  The "other wrongdoer" isn't doing harm on the order that Russia is (indeed, the "other wrongdoer" does a tremendous amount of good globally that we all collectively ignore) but more saliently the "other wrongdoer" supplies Europe with an order of magnitude less natural gas than Russia.

throwaway894345 5y ago

To your point “influence” itself isn’t bad, but who you are influenced by is significant. And if you think the US and Russia are comparable then I don’t have hope for a reasonable conversation.