3 ms·

Why is it that every criticism of agile/scrum/safe is met with "well you just weren't really doing it?"

by pc86 5y ago

mLuby 5y ago
A general goes to the commander of a group of soldiers and says "In 3 months, I want them to be able to demo the "march in formation" feature in front of the big-wigs who decide whether to give us more funding." So the commander says "Yes General, we'll do Drills™ to make it happen." And then the commander writes down "Do drills" on a TODO list, gives presentations to the soldiers about the importance of drills, and maybe even hires a certified Drill Sergeant. But the commander and soldiers never actually do drills. They clean their rifles, practice shooting, and do other soldiery things, but no drilling. 3 months later, surprise surprise, the soldiers walk all over themselves at the big parade, the general is angry, and the commander is confused why simply talking about drilling didn't work.
- Jensson 5y ago
  But lots of developers actually hates Scrum even when done correctly. The problem is that Scrum is very rigid, it tells you how long your development cycle should be, what your meetings should look like etc. They'd prefer to just do what needs done, have the meetings that needs to be had, deliver features when ready rather than have arbitrary deadlines (sprints) etc. I understand that many developers loves having that rigid process since it is easy to just go and do your work without thinking about the bigger picture, but lots of people wants to do the other parts and feel constrained by Scrum. And no, "adapting the process for your needs" doesn't work. The problem is having the process mandating meetings and timelines in the first place. If you just do everything freeform as these people wants then it isn't Scrum.
  - regularfry 5y ago
    That's a far stricter presentation of Scrum than it deserves. The scrum guide doesn't prescribe a sprint length any more specifically than "less than a month"; it doesn't say "you can only deploy once a sprint". Now, it might be that some people selling Scrum have Very Specific Views about some of these things, but that's not Scrum either.
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
    > it tells you how long your development cycle should be No it doesn't. Refuting claims about Scrum that are definitionally wrong stops us actually having useful conversations about whether actual Scrum is good or not.
- danparsonson 5y ago
  By your analogy, the purpose of doing Scrum (drills) is to get better at doing Scrum (parading) rather than doing actual work (soldiery things) - which I think pretty accurately sums up my experience with it.
  - falcor84 5y ago
    As I understand the analogy, the purpose of scrum (and particularly reporting), similar to the purpose of parading, is to demonstrate that you have in front of you a large group of individuals trained to work in an organized, consistent and predictable way. The implication is that if given any other "somewhat similar" task, this group would be able to perform that task in a similarly organized manner too. The choice of what the task should actually be is then left to someone on a higher pay grade.
- foobiekr 5y ago
  But this isn't actually what happens when agile and similar have gone wrong in my direct experience and the parent poster would note that this is the same kind of general "no true Scotsman" response to "it didn't work" that you get from self-help gurus. The system always works, all failures are that you did it wrong.
arnvald 5y ago
This. You can recognize the agile cult members by how they respond to failed projects. No matter why they project failed they always say "we need to be more agile next time".
kragen 5y ago
Probably because a lot of people aren't really doing it, for reasons that are entirely predictable if you've ever worked at a big company. Consider the core of the Agile Manifesto http://agilemanifesto.org/ http://agilemanifesto.org/: > Individuals and interactions over processes and tools > Working software over comprehensive documentation > Customer collaboration over contract negotiation > Responding to change over following a plan How many big companies do you know that are organizationally capable of valuing individuals over processes and tools, or responding to change over following a plan? Almost all big companies have the opposite value system on those two points, imposed from the top down by the CEO (with the exception that they do value individuals if those individuals are senior management). Many big companies also have incentive structures that strongly countermand the other points, too. Comprehensive documentation is crucial ammunition for redirecting the blame for bad decisions, for example. (Cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28674388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28674388: "we not only need very thorough clarity on what feature development will yield the greatest returns, but also deniability that we had good reason for doing what we were doing if it turns south.") A perfect example of using agile rhetoric without agile practices comes from today's post about what tech managers do—"standup" meetings where people don't stand up! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677250 This results in the meetings lasting half an hour, doubling or tripling their cost per participant, even before you grapple with the increased number of participants that likely results! I have my doubts about how effective Scrum could be even if practiced perfectly, but Jeff Sutherland, Mike Beedle, and Ken Schwaber are among the authors of the original Agile Manifesto (not just the signatories!), so at least they endorse those four core values and tried to make Scrum reflect them. So I think it's justifiable to say that if you value processes and tools over individuals and interactions, or following a plan over responding to change, you're not really doing Scrum, or any other agile process.
robertlagrant 5y ago
> Why is it that every criticism of agile/scrum/safe is met with "well you just weren't really doing it?" Not every criticism. Just every criticism that is actually people just not doing it. "Standups become status update meetings, therefore Scrum is stupid" is an example.

Why is it that every criticism of agile/scrum/safe is met with "well you just weren't really doing it?"

by pc86 5y ago

Why is it that every criticism of agile/scrum/safe is met with "well you just weren't really doing it?"

A general goes to the commander of a group of soldiers and says "In 3 months, I want them to be able to demo the "march in formation" feature in front of the big-wigs who decide whether to give us more funding." So the commander says "Yes General, we'll do Drills™ to make it happen." And then the commander writes down "Do drills" on a TODO list, gives presentations to the soldiers about the importance of drills, and maybe even hires a certified Drill Sergeant. But the commander and soldiers never actually do drills. They clean their rifles, practice shooting, and do other soldiery things, but no drilling. 3 months later, surprise surprise, the soldiers walk all over themselves at the big parade, the general is angry, and the commander is confused why simply talking about drilling didn't work.

Jensson 5y ago
But lots of developers actually hates Scrum even when done correctly. The problem is that Scrum is very rigid, it tells you how long your development cycle should be, what your meetings should look like etc. They'd prefer to just do what needs done, have the meetings that needs to be had, deliver features when ready rather than have arbitrary deadlines (sprints) etc. I understand that many developers loves having that rigid process since it is easy to just go and do your work without thinking about the bigger picture, but lots of people wants to do the other parts and feel constrained by Scrum. And no, "adapting the process for your needs" doesn't work. The problem is having the process mandating meetings and timelines in the first place. If you just do everything freeform as these people wants then it isn't Scrum.
- regularfry 5y ago
  That's a far stricter presentation of Scrum than it deserves. The scrum guide doesn't prescribe a sprint length any more specifically than "less than a month"; it doesn't say "you can only deploy once a sprint". Now, it might be that some people selling Scrum have Very Specific Views about some of these things, but that's not Scrum either.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  > it tells you how long your development cycle should be No it doesn't. Refuting claims about Scrum that are definitionally wrong stops us actually having useful conversations about whether actual Scrum is good or not.
danparsonson 5y ago
By your analogy, the purpose of doing Scrum (drills) is to get better at doing Scrum (parading) rather than doing actual work (soldiery things) - which I think pretty accurately sums up my experience with it.
- falcor84 5y ago
  As I understand the analogy, the purpose of scrum (and particularly reporting), similar to the purpose of parading, is to demonstrate that you have in front of you a large group of individuals trained to work in an organized, consistent and predictable way. The implication is that if given any other "somewhat similar" task, this group would be able to perform that task in a similarly organized manner too. The choice of what the task should actually be is then left to someone on a higher pay grade.
foobiekr 5y ago
But this isn't actually what happens when agile and similar have gone wrong in my direct experience and the parent poster would note that this is the same kind of general "no true Scotsman" response to "it didn't work" that you get from self-help gurus. The system always works, all failures are that you did it wrong.

arnvald 5y ago

This. You can recognize the agile cult members by how they respond to failed projects. No matter why they project failed they always say "we need to be more agile next time".

kragen 5y ago

Probably because a lot of people aren't really doing it, for reasons that are entirely predictable if you've ever worked at a big company. Consider the core of the Agile Manifesto http://agilemanifesto.org/ http://agilemanifesto.org/: > Individuals and interactions over processes and tools > Working software over comprehensive documentation > Customer collaboration over contract negotiation > Responding to change over following a plan How many big companies do you know that are organizationally capable of valuing individuals over processes and tools, or responding to change over following a plan? Almost all big companies have the opposite value system on those two points, imposed from the top down by the CEO (with the exception that they do value individuals if those individuals are senior management). Many big companies also have incentive structures that strongly countermand the other points, too. Comprehensive documentation is crucial ammunition for redirecting the blame for bad decisions, for example. (Cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28674388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28674388: "we not only need very thorough clarity on what feature development will yield the greatest returns, but also deniability that we had good reason for doing what we were doing if it turns south.") A perfect example of using agile rhetoric without agile practices comes from today's post about what tech managers do—"standup" meetings where people don't stand up! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677250 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677250 This results in the meetings lasting half an hour, doubling or tripling their cost per participant, even before you grapple with the increased number of participants that likely results! I have my doubts about how effective Scrum could be even if practiced perfectly, but Jeff Sutherland, Mike Beedle, and Ken Schwaber are among the authors of the original Agile Manifesto (not just the signatories!), so at least they endorse those four core values and tried to make Scrum reflect them. So I think it's justifiable to say that if you value processes and tools over individuals and interactions, or following a plan over responding to change, you're not really doing Scrum, or any other agile process.

robertlagrant 5y ago

> Why is it that every criticism of agile/scrum/safe is met with "well you just weren't really doing it?" Not every criticism. Just every criticism that is actually people just not doing it. "Standups become status update meetings, therefore Scrum is stupid" is an example.