5 ms·

If there were some truth to physiognomy, wouldn't these systems be the best way to defeat injustice?

by arketyp 5y ago

indymike 5y ago
These systems often create injustice at a breathtaking scale.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Werewolf255 5y ago
If there were some truth to racism, wouldn't that system be the best way to defeat inequality?
- arketyp 5y ago
  That's a devious analogy. Racism is not the same as acknowledging genetic differences. If people with darker skin are more likely to suffer from D vitamin deficiency, wouldn't we want to be informed about it? Reversely, should pale people simply ignore being burned by the sun when visiting tropical places?
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    Yes, but go back to the topic, to carry on with the idea of "physiognomy to defeat injustice". Blood type C correlates with increased shoplifting: then what? You study the matter further (good)? Or you approach Roger Slackermeyer strong of a 90% confidence of something (well...)?
    - arketyp 5y ago
      > Blood type C correlates with increased shoplifting: then what? Then you take appropriate measures, or you don't. Compare it to regular diseases. If you have a history of cancer in your family, you would probably want to go on regular screenings. Or if your family has a history of suicide, perhaps you want to pay special attention when your kids are feeling depressed.
      - mdp2021 5y ago
        > If you have a history ... in your family, you would probably want That's you personally. And the law enforcement? The HR? The neighbourhood?
        arketyp 5y ago
        Same problem as with all other diseases and predispositions we know of today.
        mdp2021 5y ago
        So, consequently, prejudice is something that must be absolutely discouraged. In fact, you mentioned «injustice» as something to be «defeat[ed]», and that an individual can be subject to prejudice (owing to similarities to others) is radically unjust. Edit: make the intellectual experiment, put yourself in those shoes and run the narration. It's you who has "that" trait. The law enforcement treats you differently. The HR treats you differently. The neighbourhood treats you differently. But you have your individual traits, not the virtual ones. Now put yourself in the other side: there is a trait for the median, and there is an individual there: how much should they rely on the trait of the median? Veeery relatively, and with all alert against pitfalls of bias, would not you say.
        arketyp 5y ago
        I compare it to me being in a wheelchair. I would want them to treat me differently, if their actions are just (whatever that means). Perhaps I am simply more optimistic than you.
mdp2021 5y ago
Surely you can discuss the matter yourself, given your use of the expression 'best way' (which would have required much more extensive defence on your side) and the number of competing factors which come to mind, such as education, societal development (environment/example, cohesion, organization), mental health, economic structure, opportunities, sanctions, law enforcement... Is not there a discipline of criminology?
- arketyp 5y ago
  My question was rhetorically stylized. I meant the best way between two opposing alternatives, i.e., between suppressing and embracing these technologies as tools in any of those fields you mention.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    Ok then (now it's much clearer). Now, - «suppressing» - the article in some parts surely may sound emotionally censorial («should be anathema»), but, - «embracing» - is the real-world context one of getting elements for further study with all caveats and common sense in place, or one of hyped glamorous reliance? Is it for the criminologist or for an agent? If the HR uses an AI sceening to hire you (first example in the article), you will think you dodged a bullet not working there, but if it is the Country to make decisions relying on it (maybe "false positives are expendable when dealing with big numbers" - which also, per se, would be the opposite of justice), well, there's less than 200 around, and many of them will not just let you in just because you want to. So, new elements to study: all very interesting. But: "Sir, I see you have the traits of those who smear themselves with bananas for pleasure" - there are a number of issues with it. You know, constructs like, e.g. from Armando Iannucci: «...the sort of racist brush that could only be wielded by a Scottish-Italian» (about himself, in Charm Offensive).
throwanem 5y ago
If there were some wheels to my grandmother, wouldn't she be a bicycle?

If there were some truth to physiognomy, wouldn't these systems be the best way to defeat injustice?

indymike 5y ago

These systems often create injustice at a breathtaking scale.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Werewolf255 5y ago

If there were some truth to racism, wouldn't that system be the best way to defeat inequality?

arketyp 5y ago
That's a devious analogy. Racism is not the same as acknowledging genetic differences. If people with darker skin are more likely to suffer from D vitamin deficiency, wouldn't we want to be informed about it? Reversely, should pale people simply ignore being burned by the sun when visiting tropical places?
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Yes, but go back to the topic, to carry on with the idea of "physiognomy to defeat injustice". Blood type C correlates with increased shoplifting: then what? You study the matter further (good)? Or you approach Roger Slackermeyer strong of a 90% confidence of something (well...)?
  - arketyp 5y ago
    > Blood type C correlates with increased shoplifting: then what? Then you take appropriate measures, or you don't. Compare it to regular diseases. If you have a history of cancer in your family, you would probably want to go on regular screenings. Or if your family has a history of suicide, perhaps you want to pay special attention when your kids are feeling depressed.
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      > If you have a history ... in your family, you would probably want That's you personally. And the law enforcement? The HR? The neighbourhood?
      - arketyp 5y ago
        Same problem as with all other diseases and predispositions we know of today.
        mdp2021 5y ago
        So, consequently, prejudice is something that must be absolutely discouraged. In fact, you mentioned «injustice» as something to be «defeat[ed]», and that an individual can be subject to prejudice (owing to similarities to others) is radically unjust. Edit: make the intellectual experiment, put yourself in those shoes and run the narration. It's you who has "that" trait. The law enforcement treats you differently. The HR treats you differently. The neighbourhood treats you differently. But you have your individual traits, not the virtual ones. Now put yourself in the other side: there is a trait for the median, and there is an individual there: how much should they rely on the trait of the median? Veeery relatively, and with all alert against pitfalls of bias, would not you say.
        arketyp 5y ago
        I compare it to me being in a wheelchair. I would want them to treat me differently, if their actions are just (whatever that means). Perhaps I am simply more optimistic than you.

mdp2021 5y ago

Surely you can discuss the matter yourself, given your use of the expression 'best way' (which would have required much more extensive defence on your side) and the number of competing factors which come to mind, such as education, societal development (environment/example, cohesion, organization), mental health, economic structure, opportunities, sanctions, law enforcement... Is not there a discipline of criminology?

arketyp 5y ago
My question was rhetorically stylized. I meant the best way between two opposing alternatives, i.e., between suppressing and embracing these technologies as tools in any of those fields you mention.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Ok then (now it's much clearer). Now, - «suppressing» - the article in some parts surely may sound emotionally censorial («should be anathema»), but, - «embracing» - is the real-world context one of getting elements for further study with all caveats and common sense in place, or one of hyped glamorous reliance? Is it for the criminologist or for an agent? If the HR uses an AI sceening to hire you (first example in the article), you will think you dodged a bullet not working there, but if it is the Country to make decisions relying on it (maybe "false positives are expendable when dealing with big numbers" - which also, per se, would be the opposite of justice), well, there's less than 200 around, and many of them will not just let you in just because you want to. So, new elements to study: all very interesting. But: "Sir, I see you have the traits of those who smear themselves with bananas for pleasure" - there are a number of issues with it. You know, constructs like, e.g. from Armando Iannucci: «...the sort of racist brush that could only be wielded by a Scottish-Italian» (about himself, in Charm Offensive).

throwanem 5y ago

If there were some wheels to my grandmother, wouldn't she be a bicycle?